Freeflying using a 288 Manta?

[hexadecimal 0]

This thread just gave me a mental picture of someone freeflying with a compact car strapped to their back

[stratostar 5]

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and (many) cannot be stalled.

This is also one of the reasons we use them and skymasters.

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Having students jump low porosity canopies, (even some with a number of jumps) is not a bad thing. It teaches them to land a reserve, which many experienced skydivers are now terrified of doing.

I agree with that.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[hexadecimal 0]

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and (many) cannot be stalled.

This is also one of the reasons we use them and skymasters.

...because you want to teach your students that canopies don't stall? What happens when they find out the truth at 20 feet or so on the canopy they go to after they get off student status?

[billvon 2,995]

>What happens when they find out the truth at 20 feet or so on the
>canopy they go to after they get off student status?

You make sure they "find out the truth" at 1000 feet first. Hence the ISP.

[stratostar 5]

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because you want to teach your students that canopies don't stall?

No because we don't a FJS to stall by flairing to high as many do, because they don't listen to the radio or just freak out from ground rush.
If you read my long post to dave (above) you would see that advanced students get trained to sink into the pit, part of learning how to do this, is knowing where the stall point is on any canopy, we train them on how to find that point up high, so they don't stall while deep in the brakes sinking into the pit, this a very good thing to learn, flying in deep brakes and sinking a canopy without stalling it.

For everyone, we are one of the few DZ's in the U.S. that has the virtual sim to aid in canopy control/mal training, we use it in the FJC as well continued ED.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[AggieDave 6]

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WOW thanks Dave......I am sure glad I read this thread. I better get rid of the "ragged out" Dolphin I jump every weekend cuz its not freefly friendly and dangerous.
Just as a note......I still jump that "ragged out" Dolphin just for people with attitudes like the one you have exhibited here. If its old...its junk.

Literally every old Dolphin I've ever seen was by far not FF friendly. Maybe yours is special.

Old doesn't equal junk, I jumped an old Vector2 for years. Older designs, however, are not necissarily FF friendly.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

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I need to rephrase this, to the "students max performance".

Right.

Other points that have been brought up are other student canopy designs stalling for students and that the large F-111 designs won't (yeah, I know we're not supposed to call them f111 anymore, but everyone knows what I'm talking about). Having jumped a Navigator 200, 220, 240, 280 and 300 on more then one occasion, on each canopy at all those various wingloadings the only way I could really stall the canopy with the toggles in normal flight was to take a wrap. That's from a 1.375:1 wingloading to a 0.9:1 wingloading. Now the Navigator's close cousin the Silohette (sp?) is a different story.

The difference in flare is the biggest point to me. 3 major movement points to the flare, 1, 2 FINISH (ala Scott Miller). It starts with a good training program (and hopefully 1-3 tandems for hands on teaching of a proper landing pattern and flaring). Continues with good instruction and practice and follows with hope for the student. Hope they don't plant their head in their ass then also ignore the radio.

The other point raised is "learning so you know how to fly a reserve." I've never flown a reserve that flew like a 9-cell F111 canopy. Infact they didn't fly like the 7-cell F111 canopies or any other canopy. They flew like a reserve. So it doesn't really come down to familiarity as much as it comes down to proper technique, understanding and instruction. The ideas are the same, they just have to transfer to a new canopy with a short amount of time.


You're right, though, I have two passions in this sport. 1 is students and the other is canopy flight. Now when I get to teach canopy flight to students, that's when I feel like a pig in the mud. That's one of the reasons I enjoy Cat A and Cat B tandems so much is that I get to really teach someone the beginnings of canopy flight, a holding area, a landing pattern and a lot of practice flares and then flare together on landing at the correct altitude.

I'll get with the students after they're out of AFF so we can try some other stuff with their canopies. I explain in more detail how stalls work on the toggles and the rear risers and have them do it on their first hop-n-pop from 5.5k. Then we'll go over flat turns. Not the "brake turns" that the ISP glances over, but a full on explaination of flat turns, how they work, why they work and why you NEED to know them. Then have them do those things. There are other drills that are beyond the glanced over crap the SIM has listed in the ISP that will bring skills like riser turns into the real world of skydiving for the student, but that's another discussion completely.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[marks2065 0]

it is refreshing to see a dz use big safe chutes with students - i've seen to many busted students because they fucked up on landing zp 150-180 chutes - after they freak out it is to late to upsize - i jumped everything from a 300 to 96 sq ft and i'm glad i started big - if a student freaks on a manta not much will happen but the same student on a zp 150 under the same situation will probably need a good stay at the hospital

[stratostar 5]

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I'll get with the students after they're out of AFF so we can try some other stuff with their canopies. I explain in more detail how stalls work on the toggles and the rear risers and have them do it on their first hop-n-pop from 5.5k. Then we'll go over flat turns. Not the "brake turns" that the ISP glances over, but a full on explaination of flat turns, how they work, why they work and why you NEED to know them. Then have them do those things. There are other drills that are beyond the glanced over crap the SIM has listed in the ISP that will bring skills like riser turns into the real world of skydiving for the student, but that's another discussion completely.

I agree with you there, this is one of the cool things about having the virtual sim to use for training, it is set up to have our DZ displayed, or we can put you into a downtown, forest, or beach.
I find by using this sim we produce better canopy skills from jump one, as well as dealing with mal's.
It takes a little longer to train a class with it ,but the payoff is better FJS canopy control, we have seen this when on a few times the radio didn't work and the FJS landed in the main LZ and flew the pattern as trained and flaired at the right time to a stand up landing.
It also very handy to for added training of more advanced students to work on all you said above in a virtual world first and then in "real time".

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[NWFlyer 2]

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it is refreshing to see a dz use big safe chutes with students - i've seen to many busted students because they fucked up on landing zp 150-180 chutes - after they freak out it is to late to upsize - i jumped everything from a 300 to 96 sq ft and i'm glad i started big - if a student freaks on a manta not much will happen but the same student on a zp 150 under the same situation will probably need a good stay at the hospital

Are there seriously DZs putting students out on canopies that small? At the DZ where I learned pretty much everyone was on a Skymaster 290, and there were a couple of 230s for smaller students and for people to downsize a bit as they were transitioning off of student status.

I had my own gear before I got my A license so I was able to first jump my Spectre under the guidance of my instructors, which was very helpful.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[AggieDave 6]

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I agree with you there, this is one of the cool things about having the virtual sim to use for training, it is set up to have our DZ displayed

That sounds neat, but I can't personally comment on it since I've never had the opportunity to really use one. I saw one at the Bush Library a couple of years ago, but never got into it.

The closest thing I'm able to do are tandems to teach while we fly together.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[stratostar 5]

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The closest thing I'm able to do are tandems to teach while we fly together

I would say this is a better hands on in real time training then the sim, but S/L & AFF's we don't make them do a tandem first as some do, this where the sims is the most helpful.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[bozo 0]

Literally every old Dolphin I've ever seen was by far not FF friendly. Maybe yours is special.

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well of course it is...thats why its mine

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[hexadecimal 0]

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Are there seriously DZs putting students out on canopies that small?

There are dropzones out there that have smaller student canopies than that (which they only use for students who prove they're ready for them)... and a lower number of student injuries than most dropzones using big ass dinosaurs from the early 90s.

It all comes down to the quality of the instruction received by the students.

[marks2065 0]

yes - sdc was one of the first when roger was there - csc was not far behind - most students start of on a zp170-190 wich is ok if the student can handle it - but there are afew that can't and for that reason i think all should start larger to weed out the ones that can't handle the smaller chutes - and from what i have seen nobody can predict how a student will handle themselves untill after they are tested in real life - if they pass let them downsize slowly - would you rather see a student on a zp170 or a manta in 10 mph with a downwind no flare landing ?

[Daizey 0]

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Are there seriously DZs putting students out on canopies that small?

At the dz I learned at they did.

I did the majority of my student jumps on a sabre 170....

*daizey*

[recovercrachead 0]

Are gear is from veitnam!

Track high, Pull LOW!!!