Cheating the students?

[Akey 0]

I visited a dropzone the other day (shall remain undesclosed) and was rarther surprised to find that they were charging full price for altitudes of around 5-6k to tandem students. On seeing one of their videos i heard it mentioned that they would be going to 'around 10k' however they didn't appear to even get 10sec of freefall, i think i counted around 8... I did not feel i could say anything due to low jump numbers etc. but it did make me feel a little uneasy. What are your thoughts on this? Have you ever experienced something similar and what would you do? I mean the tandem students were still really happy etc.

[cpoxon 0]

Was this standard practice at the dropzone or were there prevailing conditions (meteorological, time left in the day etc), that caused this?

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[DougH 270]

That isn't a drop zone I would jump at. If they cheat a tandem student, what else are they cheating on. Are they slacking when handling aircraft maintanence, the credit on my account, the pack jobs their rigger does???

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Andy9o8 2]

If the students were told ahead of time that their money was only buying them a few seconds of freefall followed by a nice canopy ride, then there's no problem. Or, if they only got a short jump but were charged a discounted rate, that's probably OK, too. But if they were promised at least 10K of altitude, but got out much lower (and didn't know any better), and were still charged full freight, then it's an unethical business practice, IMO.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Was this standard practice at the dropzone or were there prevailing conditions (meteorological, time left in the day etc), that caused this?

Even assuming it was a "conditions" factor, advance disclosure to the students should have been made, and/or they should have been charged a discounted rate.

[chaoskitty 0]

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they were charging full price for altitudes of around 5-6k to tandem students.

Are you sure about that? Tandems (should) pull around 6 and be under canopy by 5k. I've never seen a tandem leave the plane at lower than 10K. Whats the point?

[bch7773 0]

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they were charging full price for altitudes of around 5-6k to tandem students.

Are you sure about that? Tandems (should) pull around 6 and be under canopy by 5k. I've never seen a tandem leave the plane at lower than 10K. Whats the point?

Tandems can get out as low as 6k safely.

The point? to make money off students.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[chaoskitty 0]

Yeah its called a Tandem hop-n-pop. Thats not a skydive from a tandem's perspective. Wish people wouldnt do that... glad I dont jump at places that do.

[PhreeZone 20]

I understand that Lodi in California specifically does that with their heavy students to avoid reaching terminal and putting too much abuse on the gear.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

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[skinnyshrek 0]

Ive shot some videos from 7-9k It sucks for them as you have to slow mo the exits and freefall. Doesn't make for much of a good video. The last one i just let them pay my slot. I don't feel right making money on a 10-15 second freefall.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[chaoskitty 0]

Define "heavy"? Do they have the same max weight for tandems as other drop zones who take their students to atlitude and are just more precarious with their gear? Or do they take heavier people than the standard max weight?

Either way.. I'm not telling anyone how to run their DZ. I was 'cheated' as a student so I try to stand up and say something when I see it happening to others.

[freeflyit 0]

I hear that.

[popsjumper 2]

I could have sworn that you were in the U.S. until I looked at your profile.



IMHO...low alti, high price...no discosure...bad juju.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[freeflyit 0]

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If the students were told ahead of time that their money was only buying them a few seconds of freefall followed by a nice canopy ride, then there's no problem

You can pretty much tell a student anything and they'll be ok with it as long as they get to jump out of an airplane and will probably have no idea that they are actually getting ripped off.

[vdschoor 0]

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Define "heavy"? Do they have the same max weight for tandems as other drop zones who take their students to atlitude and are just more precarious with their gear? Or do they take heavier people than the standard max weight?

They only do this with really heavy people, like way beyond the normal 200 pound limit...

[chaoskitty 0]

I guess thats alright, as long as the student knows theyre not getting freefall, just an exit and a canopy ride.

[vdschoor 0]

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I guess thats alright, as long as the student knows theyre not getting freefall, just an exit and a canopy ride.

Yes they do.. it gets explained to them that they are too heavy to safely go into freefall as that would put too much stress on the gear and the instructor.

they know they are getting a "hop 'n pop"

[AggieDave 6]

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Are you sure about that? Tandems (should) pull around 6 and be under canopy by 5k.

6K? Tandems are supposed to pull by 4.5k. I typically pull the drogue release around 5k, but on back to back loads I'll pull the drogue released at 4.5k.

With that said the lowest tandem I've done was at 9k. That was due to a cloud layer and the student knew about it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skinnyshrek 0]

Whats the heaviest passenger you have taken dave? And if you have a slightly heavy passenger say 190-210lb, Do you just do a hop n pop with them or do you give them freefall?

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[chaoskitty 0]

I knew someone would disagree with that. I'm not a TI, but I've been around a while and thats the majority of what I've seen. If they can exit at 14K and be in the saddle by 5k, they get the best of both experiences.

[AggieDave 6]

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Whats the heaviest passenger you have taken dave?

Not above the combined weight of 500lbs

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Do you just do a hop n pop with them or do you give them freefall?

Freefall. I do not do tandem hop-n-pops and the excuse about the extra wear and tear on the gear is, IMO, a cop-out by instructors who don't want to deal with larger people that can go within the confines of the gear limitations.


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If they can exit at 14K and be in the saddle by 5k, they get the best of both experiences.

In the saddle by about 3.5k from a 4.5k pull or 4k from a 5k pull. They still get an incredible experience under canopy. That I promise you. I hand them the toggles and teach them how to turn and how the canopy flies. My students enjoy the experienced AND get training on basic skydiving skills.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skinnyshrek 0]

I have videoed quite a few instructors that will only take small tiny cute chicks. I just thought it was them being safe as to not overload the gear But your right, if the restrictions are 500lb then why should someone do a h and p with somone over 200lb if the total exit weight is less than that. Seems like the dz is ripping off the student

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[JohnRich 4]

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That isn't a drop zone I would jump at. If they cheat a tandem student, what else are they cheating on. Are they slacking when handling aircraft maintanence, the credit on my account, the pack jobs their rigger does???

First, you've jumped to a conclusion that the tandem students are being cheated, without knowing all the facts.

Second, your extrapolation of concern from that tandem exit altitude to other serious matters goes way too far to be automatically justified.

[phoenixlpr 0]

I have seen only 3000m or 4000m tandems. It was depending on the TM and plane, but price was the same.

[chaoskitty 0]

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In the saddle by about 3.5k from a 4.5k pull or 4k from a 5k pull. They still get an incredible experience under canopy. That I promise you. I hand them the toggles and teach them how to turn and how the canopy flies. My students enjoy the experienced AND get training on basic skydiving skills.

I know! I let YOU take my cousin, remember?

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