b_dog 0 #26 October 31, 2006 QuoteAFF = 8 jumps, total cost £1500 plus any resits, Early levels are expensive e.g level 1 £300 RAPS: FJC + jump 1 = £200 17 jumps @ £35 each = £595 total cost £795. If you do what my mates did and take 30 jumps, that cost climbs to £1250. Maybe those are the figures one faces in the UK. But as for what I face in my neck of the woods... AFF - 7 jumps @ $1230 total, NOT including repeats SL - 10 jumps @ $500 total, not including repeats either but repeats are less pricey than AFF. But one has to look at the big picture, i.e. once you have 25 or so jumps in hand and have your A license, what have you spent so far? $1230 7 AFF jumps + 18 additional jumps to A license. $500 10 SL jumps + 15 additonal jumps to A license. All in all if everything went well, going through SL has three less jumps I got to reach for. In any case, if I went through SL and had my A license in hand I will have $700 more in the bank that I otherwise would not have had I gone for AFF. For my budget, that's an important difference. QuoteA MAJOR advantage of AFF - your jumps are videoed. As in, included in the ticket price? Not always true. For my home DZ, you have to pay extra for video. Combined with the cost of AFF jumps that would accumulate very quickly. QuoteIt doesn't have to be 'either/or' if the instructors want to work it with you. It would be nice to do something of a hybrid program but looking at the websites of many of my state's DZs, it appears they strictly separate SL from AFF, as in there's not much option for combining them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stiffler 0 #27 October 31, 2006 you want to stick to talking about what you know then don't you ! SHE LIVES IN ENGLAND, why are you banging on about what it costs, and A license requirements, IN AMERICA? in England, if you pass your 8 AFF jumps, you only have to do a further 10 solo consolidation jumps to get your A To the original poster.... please refer back to my original question to you in this topic, what would you prefer? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #28 October 31, 2006 Quoteyou want to stick to talking about what you know then don't you ! SHE LIVES IN ENGLAND, why are you banging on about what it costs, and A license requirements, IN AMERICA? in England, if you pass your 8 AFF jumps, you only have to do a further 10 solo consolidation jumps to get your A To the original poster.... please refer back to my original question to you in this topic, what would you prefer? The problem is your original post is bullshit, as is most of the arguements that Pilatus_P states. Skyflygrl--Go to different dz's, watch and get a feel for both types of training. If you take advice on here, make sure you're looking at who its coming from (Someone with 1000's of jump and instructor ratings, or someone with a few jumps still on student status), but be careful. It's also the internet where people frequently lie about who they are. But talk to instuctors in person at local dz's. You'll get a better feel for what will be right for you. Either way, be safe and have fun. If it's not fun, it's not worth doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stiffler 0 #29 October 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteyou want to stick to talking about what you know then don't you ! SHE LIVES IN ENGLAND, why are you banging on about what it costs, and A license requirements, IN AMERICA? in England, if you pass your 8 AFF jumps, you only have to do a further 10 solo consolidation jumps to get your A To the original poster.... please refer back to my original question to you in this topic, what would you prefer? The problem is your original post is bullshit, as is most of the arguements that Palipus_P states. Sky--Go to different dz's, watch and get a feel for both types of training. If you take advice on here, make sure you're looking at who its coming from (Someone with 1000's of jump and instructor ratings, or someone with a few jumps still on student status), but be careful. It's also the internet where people frequently lie about who they are. But talk to instuctors in person at local dz's. You'll get a better feel for what will be right for you. Either way, be safe and have fun. If it's not fun, it's not worth doing. is it fuck ! how can a question be bullshit, i suspect you're temporarily talking out of your arse Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #30 October 31, 2006 QuoteSHE LIVES IN ENGLAND in England, if you pass your 8 AFF jumps, you only have to do a further 10 solo consolidation jumps to get your A I am curious: In England, do static line jumps count toward the A License? -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
b_dog 0 #31 October 31, 2006 [QUOTE]SHE LIVES IN ENGLAND, why are you banging on about what it costs, and A license requirements, IN AMERICA?[/QUOTE] I'm aware she lives in England, and I know her circumstances may be different. My post was directed at pilatus' points. He said he did not understand the views that SL was better, so I was offering my reasons in consideration of what differences there may be regarding traning programs and cost in America in contrast to the UK. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stiffler 0 #32 October 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteSHE LIVES IN ENGLAND in England, if you pass your 8 AFF jumps, you only have to do a further 10 solo consolidation jumps to get your A I am curious: In England, do static line jumps count toward the A License? - not if you're on the AFF program.... vise versa, if for some bizzare reason you change from AFF to static line, your AFF jumps are useless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyflygirl1 0 #33 October 31, 2006 Quote One thing about S/L of course is that you can say (assuming you haven't done a tandem) is that you did your first jump out of a plane all on your own I have done a tandem, DOH! Could never have wanted to get my a licence without experiencing the 'real' thing first. Have also done 30 mins in the tunnel so the body position isn't a big issue for me. Thanks to all who have left comments, has been very helpfulFear is Temporary, Regret is Forever! www.myspace.com/byasa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyflygirl1 0 #34 October 31, 2006 QuoteI think it would be nice to do a mix of SL and AFF. I think that would be way better than the *tandem* progression, which I think is just a way to fleece students of their money. That's a really good idea, might do a s/l beginning and see how it goes, guess i could change to Aff if i wanted Brain is ticking nicelyFear is Temporary, Regret is Forever! www.myspace.com/byasa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #35 October 31, 2006 QuoteThere's some unusual arguments going on in this thread. I have done both SL and AFF, and IMO I have to say AFF is much better. With 11 jumps you can tell which makes a better skydiver? You know both programs well enough to know all the differences? QuoteI cannot understand these views of SL being better because: 1) you dont have to pull and hence need no JM True - for the early jumps. Once you're past DRCP's you're onto your first short delay. 'you dont have to pull' is misinformation to a newbie, because presuming you get through the first 5 jumps straight off, you are pulling on jump 6. Oh and yeah - dont drop the DRCP or that is going to cost you extra ... Never a reason I have given. And as for extra cost, dropping a PRCP is MUCH less than paying for two instructors to jump with you. Quote2) can jump when AFF'ers can't Again, true for early jumps. But get on to your delays, and you need to go higher. That 3500' cloud base is starting to look the same as it does to the AFF'ers ... Not true at all. If I have a 45 second SL student and an AFF (Any level) and the clouds are at 5 grand. The SL student can do clear and pulls while the AFF student sits on the ground. Quote3) Static line doesnt take longer and encourages greater stability In the UK, during ther colder / wetter months (e.g 9 out of 12 of them), it can take FOREVER. Of all the guys I know that tried to stick with RAPS, most dropped out because of waiting for jumpable weather, queueing to get on rare loads when the weather was OK, and then having to go and do it again (and again) when they went unstable on their 10 second delays. Weather that will not let an SL student jump will not let an AFF student jump either. QuoteThis final point was most people's reason to switch to AFF - it SCARY tumbling through the air, with your view going blue green blue green blue green and then hoping that you manage to dump stable. All this after around 30 jumps - because they lost the advantage of recency by waiting weeks between each jumpable slot! And I have seen AFF students quit since they never got past level 3 and got tired of paying for 3 slots and two jump masters to fail again. QuoteCost comparison: ----------------------- AFF = 8 jumps, total cost £1500 plus any resits, Early levels are expensive e.g level 1 £300 RAPS: FJC + jump 1 = £200 17 jumps @ £35 each = £595 total cost £795. If you do what my mates did and take 30 jumps, that cost climbs to £1250. Which is STILL less than AFF. AND they got 30 jumps as opposed to 8. Thats 30 MORE jumps under supervision, 30 more exits, 30 more openings, 30 more canopy rides, 30 more landings, 30 more...well 30 more EVERYTHING! 30 vs 8....I'll take the 30 thanks. QuoteOne good weekend and you can get through That is not always a GOOD thing. And its only 8 jumps as opposed to 17. You learn a ton about aircraft, canopies...ect in those extra jumps. Quoteand if you go unstable there's a JM there to save your ass. Or you could just arch. QuoteIf you can punch out 18 RAPS jumps in two days then I would be impressed I'll take a student that spent the extra time over a one weekend warrior anyday. QuoteA MAJOR advantage of AFF - your jumps are videoed Not everywhere. QuoteUnstable? Screwed up your pull? Trying to tear the PC from your legstrap when you have a BOC? (ahem. yes that was me) ... your JM can SHOW YOU exactly what you did, 5 minutes after you land ... RAPS will not have this advantage unless you ask for someone to fly camera for you. Not true at all. I can tell a student what he did as soon as he lands with a SL jump. QuoteIn the UK, if you have the patience, time and skill, then RAPS would be a cheaper option. If you want to get qualified and begin working on things like CH, RW and FS asap, then AFF for me, every time. Ah, last I checked you still needed to pass FS1 before you could work on any of those things...And here in the US you have to have a license to jump with anyone else and that means 25 jumps no matter what method you learned."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #36 October 31, 2006 in reply to "Just want some more direct opinions about this Which is better, AFF or S/L? " ......................... I feel AFF students are missing out. Static line progression is much more of a personal challenge than AFF. And heaps more fun on an individual level. You get the basic skills in a natural progression not all at once. It feels more playful somehow than the often highly commercialised AFF operations. You actually get to jump by YOURSELF without some-one holding onto you . That may be important to you ....it was to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,439 #37 October 31, 2006 BAD Ron! No biscuit! All those facts. It's easier to just decide Actually, great post. Except you forgot to bold the part about Quote30 more landings. And let's not forget what you mentioned earlier, that SL students seem to be more likely to be packing for themselves. Spotting is also much easier to learn when you start at 4500 feet than when you start at 12,500. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyflygirl1 0 #38 October 31, 2006 QuoteThere's some unusual arguments going on in this thread. I have done both SL and AFF, and IMO I have to say AFF is much better. Thanks very much, the way you explained your whole argument has really helped (only quoted a small portion of it), I agree with you about the weather.Fear is Temporary, Regret is Forever! www.myspace.com/byasa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #39 October 31, 2006 QuoteI have done a tandem, DOH! Could never have wanted to get my a licence without experiencing the 'real' thing first. Have also done 30 mins in the tunnel so the body position isn't a big issue for me. Then both programs should be no problem. The method will not matter much if you put some focus on the areas that each program lacks. I personally see way to many AFF grads that can't pack, spot, or exit low and these are important things that get missed and ignored. But I have seen very few grads of either method not work on freefall skills. IMO, most that bash SL had no clue about the program."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Stiffler 0 #40 October 31, 2006 AFF if you're young and want to follow new and better ways.... Static line if you're an old crusty who bangs on about the "good old days" and thinks everything was better when they were young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #41 October 31, 2006 QuoteAFF if you're young and want to follow new and better ways.... Static line if you're an old crusty who bangs on about the "good old days" and thinks everything was better when they were young Or AFF if you have no clue about the programs and just want to desperately try to fit in and belong, or have no patience and demand it now even if it is not the best solution. SL if you know that surviving is more important than just trying to look cool. BTW, I'm only 34, not exactly "crusty". Care to fill out a profile so people know your experience?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #42 October 31, 2006 I fail to see how SL or AFF makes you any safer, one versus the other. Sorry I don't buy it. I went through aff, got great instruction, and never thought twice about my low altitude hops and pops. If the pilot tells me to get the fuck out at 1750 feet I know I can do it, but I will be going silver. I learned to land my canopy the same as some one doing SL. My 8 aff jumps got me 8 landings, 8 static line jumps would have gotten me 8 landings as well. I had to practice exits to get out of the plane, no different than SL."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #43 October 31, 2006 QuoteI went through aff, got great instruction, and never thought twice about my low altitude hops and pops. If the pilot tells me to get the fuck out at 1750 feet I know I can do it, but I will be going silver. Ah so you know huh? I have seen people say the same thing, then freeze in the door in a real emergency. What is your lowest exit to date, and how many? QuoteI learned to land my canopy the same as some one doing SL. My 8 aff jumps got me 8 landings, 8 static line jumps would have gotten me 8 landings as well. But 18 would give you 18, not 8. And since you went through AFF, what do you know of the SL program? You don't have to agree, or even understand. But just because you don't, does not mean you are correct. QuoteI fail to see how SL or AFF makes you any safer, one versus the other. Sorry I don't buy it. SL students tend to learn how to spot, where AFF students don't. Spotting is a life saving skill. SL students do more jumps under supervision, that means there are more opportunities to ask questions. SL students normally learn how to pack....I have known AFF grads that with 600+ jumps can't pack. SL students have more landings watched...Being that landings are the number one killer, more attention to canopy control is better."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilatus_p 0 #44 October 31, 2006 Guys Have some of you thought of switching to decaf? Skyflygirl, hope whatever you choose is awesome! Catch you on a DZ sometime Rosshttp://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #45 October 31, 2006 Certs is a breath mint! Or is it a candy mint? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #46 October 31, 2006 Quote Ah so you know huh? I have seen people say the same thing, then freeze in the door in a real emergency. What is your lowest exit to date, and how many? As low as I can jump, considering USPA min pack openings. When my USPA license changes, I will jump at the opportunity to do lower hop and pops. At least 40% of my jumps are clear and pulls from 3.5k, I eat them up. Quote But 18 would give you 18, not 8. This is only a valid point if after AFF you no longer skydive. I continue to jump and land, it makes no difference if I do so off AFF status, or as a continuing static line student. The math is simple I thought, one jump one landing. Continuing until death, or dropping out of the sport right? Quote SL students tend to learn how to spot, where AFF students don't. Spotting is a life saving skill. If students aren't spotting during AFF that is there instructors problem, or their drop zones problem not a program problem. I jump at a Cessna drop zone, and I started spotting on the first jump. Quote SL students do more jumps under supervision, that means there are more opportunities to ask questions. Your problems with AFF seem to center around piss poor instructors and drop zones, not a flaw in the system itself."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,439 #47 October 31, 2006 He's an AFFI. I don't think he has an inherent problem with AFF. It's just not a one-size-fits-all tool, any more that static line is. And a discussion that focuses only on its good points, and static line's bad points, is not a very good discussion. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #48 October 31, 2006 That was my only point Wendy. I personally wasn't pointing out any negatives to static line."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #49 October 31, 2006 QuoteAs low as I can jump, considering USPA min pack openings. When my USPA license changes, I will jump at the opportunity to do lower hop and pops. At least 40% of my jumps are clear and pulls from 3.5k, I eat them up Then YOU may be fine. But honestly, you are not the norm. QuoteThis is only a valid point if after AFF you no longer skydive. I continue to jump and land, it makes no difference if I do so off AFF status, or as a continuing static line student. The math is simple I thought, one jump one landing. Continuing until death, or dropping out of the sport right? You would be correct EXCEPT that while under student status an Instructor is watching you land. For AFF thats about 8, for SL thats 18ish. Thats 10 more landings under supervision AND 10 more plane rides, gear ups, exits...ect. QuoteIf students aren't spotting during AFF that is there instructors problem, or their drop zones problem not a program problem. I jump at a Cessna drop zone, and I started spotting on the first jump. Again it is an issue of number of times. With an AFF student they get 8 attempts, SL they get 18. Also it is easier to learn to spot starting low and going higher than starting at 9-10 grand. QuoteYour problems with AFF seem to center around piss poor instructors and drop zones, not a flaw in the system itself. The system leads to the flaws. When everyone learned SL we didn't need "coaches", spotting "classes", or packing "classes". I taught tons of people to pack after they landed from a SL jump. Today since people want quick they go AFF and have packers pack the rig. This attitude leads to people who can't pack, spot, or exit low in an emergency. With 3900 jumps, SL and AFF I ratings you would think I would know a little about both programs and the faults of both. I don't hate AFF (I am rated and do teach), but it is clear that some do not know the weaknesses of the program and the strengths of SL. Both programs have strengths and weaknesses....You seem to only think one is strong and one weak, and that is just not true."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #50 October 31, 2006 Quote Both programs have strengths and weaknesses....You seem to only think one is strong and one weak, and that is just not true. Once again, I never said that AFF is strong, or static line is weak. I think it is pretty clear that I had a great AFF experince, that that centers around my instructors, and not the discipline I learned under. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
wmw999 2,439 #37 October 31, 2006 BAD Ron! No biscuit! All those facts. It's easier to just decide Actually, great post. Except you forgot to bold the part about Quote30 more landings. And let's not forget what you mentioned earlier, that SL students seem to be more likely to be packing for themselves. Spotting is also much easier to learn when you start at 4500 feet than when you start at 12,500. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyflygirl1 0 #38 October 31, 2006 QuoteThere's some unusual arguments going on in this thread. I have done both SL and AFF, and IMO I have to say AFF is much better. Thanks very much, the way you explained your whole argument has really helped (only quoted a small portion of it), I agree with you about the weather.Fear is Temporary, Regret is Forever! www.myspace.com/byasa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #39 October 31, 2006 QuoteI have done a tandem, DOH! Could never have wanted to get my a licence without experiencing the 'real' thing first. Have also done 30 mins in the tunnel so the body position isn't a big issue for me. Then both programs should be no problem. The method will not matter much if you put some focus on the areas that each program lacks. I personally see way to many AFF grads that can't pack, spot, or exit low and these are important things that get missed and ignored. But I have seen very few grads of either method not work on freefall skills. IMO, most that bash SL had no clue about the program."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stiffler 0 #40 October 31, 2006 AFF if you're young and want to follow new and better ways.... Static line if you're an old crusty who bangs on about the "good old days" and thinks everything was better when they were young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #41 October 31, 2006 QuoteAFF if you're young and want to follow new and better ways.... Static line if you're an old crusty who bangs on about the "good old days" and thinks everything was better when they were young Or AFF if you have no clue about the programs and just want to desperately try to fit in and belong, or have no patience and demand it now even if it is not the best solution. SL if you know that surviving is more important than just trying to look cool. BTW, I'm only 34, not exactly "crusty". Care to fill out a profile so people know your experience?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #42 October 31, 2006 I fail to see how SL or AFF makes you any safer, one versus the other. Sorry I don't buy it. I went through aff, got great instruction, and never thought twice about my low altitude hops and pops. If the pilot tells me to get the fuck out at 1750 feet I know I can do it, but I will be going silver. I learned to land my canopy the same as some one doing SL. My 8 aff jumps got me 8 landings, 8 static line jumps would have gotten me 8 landings as well. I had to practice exits to get out of the plane, no different than SL."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #43 October 31, 2006 QuoteI went through aff, got great instruction, and never thought twice about my low altitude hops and pops. If the pilot tells me to get the fuck out at 1750 feet I know I can do it, but I will be going silver. Ah so you know huh? I have seen people say the same thing, then freeze in the door in a real emergency. What is your lowest exit to date, and how many? QuoteI learned to land my canopy the same as some one doing SL. My 8 aff jumps got me 8 landings, 8 static line jumps would have gotten me 8 landings as well. But 18 would give you 18, not 8. And since you went through AFF, what do you know of the SL program? You don't have to agree, or even understand. But just because you don't, does not mean you are correct. QuoteI fail to see how SL or AFF makes you any safer, one versus the other. Sorry I don't buy it. SL students tend to learn how to spot, where AFF students don't. Spotting is a life saving skill. SL students do more jumps under supervision, that means there are more opportunities to ask questions. SL students normally learn how to pack....I have known AFF grads that with 600+ jumps can't pack. SL students have more landings watched...Being that landings are the number one killer, more attention to canopy control is better."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilatus_p 0 #44 October 31, 2006 Guys Have some of you thought of switching to decaf? Skyflygirl, hope whatever you choose is awesome! Catch you on a DZ sometime Rosshttp://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #45 October 31, 2006 Certs is a breath mint! Or is it a candy mint? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #46 October 31, 2006 Quote Ah so you know huh? I have seen people say the same thing, then freeze in the door in a real emergency. What is your lowest exit to date, and how many? As low as I can jump, considering USPA min pack openings. When my USPA license changes, I will jump at the opportunity to do lower hop and pops. At least 40% of my jumps are clear and pulls from 3.5k, I eat them up. Quote But 18 would give you 18, not 8. This is only a valid point if after AFF you no longer skydive. I continue to jump and land, it makes no difference if I do so off AFF status, or as a continuing static line student. The math is simple I thought, one jump one landing. Continuing until death, or dropping out of the sport right? Quote SL students tend to learn how to spot, where AFF students don't. Spotting is a life saving skill. If students aren't spotting during AFF that is there instructors problem, or their drop zones problem not a program problem. I jump at a Cessna drop zone, and I started spotting on the first jump. Quote SL students do more jumps under supervision, that means there are more opportunities to ask questions. Your problems with AFF seem to center around piss poor instructors and drop zones, not a flaw in the system itself."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,439 #47 October 31, 2006 He's an AFFI. I don't think he has an inherent problem with AFF. It's just not a one-size-fits-all tool, any more that static line is. And a discussion that focuses only on its good points, and static line's bad points, is not a very good discussion. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #48 October 31, 2006 That was my only point Wendy. I personally wasn't pointing out any negatives to static line."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #49 October 31, 2006 QuoteAs low as I can jump, considering USPA min pack openings. When my USPA license changes, I will jump at the opportunity to do lower hop and pops. At least 40% of my jumps are clear and pulls from 3.5k, I eat them up Then YOU may be fine. But honestly, you are not the norm. QuoteThis is only a valid point if after AFF you no longer skydive. I continue to jump and land, it makes no difference if I do so off AFF status, or as a continuing static line student. The math is simple I thought, one jump one landing. Continuing until death, or dropping out of the sport right? You would be correct EXCEPT that while under student status an Instructor is watching you land. For AFF thats about 8, for SL thats 18ish. Thats 10 more landings under supervision AND 10 more plane rides, gear ups, exits...ect. QuoteIf students aren't spotting during AFF that is there instructors problem, or their drop zones problem not a program problem. I jump at a Cessna drop zone, and I started spotting on the first jump. Again it is an issue of number of times. With an AFF student they get 8 attempts, SL they get 18. Also it is easier to learn to spot starting low and going higher than starting at 9-10 grand. QuoteYour problems with AFF seem to center around piss poor instructors and drop zones, not a flaw in the system itself. The system leads to the flaws. When everyone learned SL we didn't need "coaches", spotting "classes", or packing "classes". I taught tons of people to pack after they landed from a SL jump. Today since people want quick they go AFF and have packers pack the rig. This attitude leads to people who can't pack, spot, or exit low in an emergency. With 3900 jumps, SL and AFF I ratings you would think I would know a little about both programs and the faults of both. I don't hate AFF (I am rated and do teach), but it is clear that some do not know the weaknesses of the program and the strengths of SL. Both programs have strengths and weaknesses....You seem to only think one is strong and one weak, and that is just not true."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #50 October 31, 2006 Quote Both programs have strengths and weaknesses....You seem to only think one is strong and one weak, and that is just not true. Once again, I never said that AFF is strong, or static line is weak. I think it is pretty clear that I had a great AFF experince, that that centers around my instructors, and not the discipline I learned under. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
