When is someone going to hit a plane in FF again?

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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It really is our problem and responsibility.

The poster above hit a good point. Don't aerial maps have a parachute symbol on them to warn aircraft there is a DZ down there? Isn't the pilot of the "target" aircraft at least partially responsible to steer clear of an obvious hazard?

Yes there are symbols,No they are not required to stay out of the area.This falls into the catagory of whats safe is not always legal and what is legal is not always safe.

[NWFlyer 2]

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It really is our problem and responsibility.

The poster above hit a good point. Don't aerial maps have a parachute symbol on them to warn aircraft there is a DZ down there? Isn't the pilot of the "target" aircraft at least partially responsible to steer clear of an obvious hazard?

I think of scanning for aircraft kind of like defensive driving. Yes, the other driver may be responsible and may be at fault, but if he hits me, it still sucks for me. If I hit an aircraft in freefall, it might very well be the pilot who made a mistake, but I'm just as dead.

The bottom line is, pilots miss symbols on maps. They don't bother reading NOTAMs (or whatever the equivalent is in other countries). They are new and they screw up. All kinds of shit happens, and we need to make sure that shit doesn't bite us in the ass.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[DSE 5]

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I personally think it's pretty stupid for any aircraft of any kind to be flying (other than the DZ aircraft taking skydivers up) within a mile of the DZ at all.

I know DZs also have small aircraft they take up, but hopefully they know better than to go anywhere near the freefall/canopy path of the divers and to stay on the opposite side of the DZ from where the jumpers got out if possible.

As far as aircraft not owned by the DZ it seems like there should be a law to prohibit aircraft from being within 1 miles of the DZ (unless they stay above abotu 16-17,000).

That's just my opinion though. I'd personally be pretty pissed if I came within 1000 ft. of another aircraft after I'm out of the plane. 1000 ft is a safe enough distance from myself that I'd feel comfortable, but there are plenty of other divers within 1000 ft of myself that could be very close to the aircraft.

Many dropzones share the airport facility with other businesses, private aircraft owners, and commercial operations. If the runway is paved, you can almost rest assured that federal $$ went into the airport at some level. Therefore, it's all but impossible to have situations where no one else is flying within a mile of the dropzone. Even if there were such a restriction (and there are restrictions as to where aircraft may fly) it is still entirely YOUR responsibility to be safe in the air whether in freefall or under canopy. You have less control, less speed, and less mass, but so does a bicycle rider on the side of the freeway.
As you grow from student status, your JM or instructors will teach you to spot, and looking out for aircraft is an integral part of the spotting process.
Our DZ for example, is used by a lot of doctors/lawyers/private business aircraft plus firefighting aircraft and helicopter businesses, controlled by a tower 30 miles away. It's not extremely common, but not uncommon to have to do go-arounds because other aircraft are spotted in our flight path.

[billvon 3,058]

> The plane creates a giant blind spot behind the JM when checking for traffic.

If that's the case, that JM needs to learn how to clear his airspace! It's no problem looking under an Otter (or ahead of a Skyvan) while spotting.

[JohnMitchell 16]

Bill, I know you're a good spotter, but to lean out the door of an otter and look under the belly far enough to spot a light aircraft 4 miles away at 2500 agl? And make sure you take the time to pie all the quadrants to not miss any traffic? That's a tall order.

I scan the 2 quadrants visible out the clear door on the way to altitude and as the pilot turns on jumprun. I especially check for following traffic in the 6 o'clock low, one of the most dangerous places. Our DZ has a policy of "Light on, open the door, check spot, and jump." We don't have a minute of open door time to scan beneath the belly of the plane. That is why I say there is a blind spot for the JM checking traffic. When I'm not at the door on jumprun, I try to scan the other side of the plane out one of those little windows, but that's not optimal.

Ask any fighter pilot. Every plane has blind spots. That's why a multi pronged approach to traffic scan is the best. Pilots, Jm's, and air traffic control working together can give the best traffic picture. Make sure that heeding traffic calls from ATC is a priority to your pilots. With some, it isn't.

P.S. Radar coverage varies from place to place. It's a good idea to know how low radar can or can't see at your DZ.

[DougH 270]

Gen aviation > skydiving

They have every right to use the airspace just like us.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[billvon 3,058]

>Bill, I know you're a good spotter, but to lean out the door of an
> otter and look under the belly far enough to spot a light aircraft 4
> miles away at 2500 agl?

Light aircraft at 2500 agl go about 120-150kts, which means you only have to look through an angle of about 45 degrees. That's easy to do.


>And make sure you take the time to pie all the quadrants to not
>miss any traffic? That's a tall order.

Agreed - it's not easy. But it could save your life and the lives of the people you jump with, as well as the lives of the people in the plane - so it's worth doing.

>Ask any fighter pilot. Every plane has blind spots.

Absolutely! We have the big advantage of being able to stick our heads outside the plane. Fighter pilots can't do that.

>That's why a multi pronged approach to traffic scan is the best.

I agree. Air traffic control, ground spotters, pilots and even other people on the plane (looking out other windows) can all help the spotter clear the airspace more effectively.

[tombuch 0]

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It really is our problem and responsibility.

The poster above hit a good point. Don't aerial maps have a parachute symbol on them to warn aircraft there is a DZ down there? Isn't the pilot of the "target" aircraft at least partially responsible to steer clear of an obvious hazard?

Printed sectional charts do have a tiny parachute symbol, but few pilots are using sectionals any more. Most now use GPS or some other digital map system, and those do not include drop zones.

It is very possible for a pilot to get a current flight briefing, check all NOTAMS, use the latest IFR approved moving map software in a state of the art aircraft, and not even know there is a drop zone nearby. See http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1133168;#1133168 for more details.

This is a national (and international) problem I have been working for more than three years. We are making progress, but it is slow. Until we get drop zone data to every pilot, jumpers must be extra cautious and fully clear the airspace before any jump. Final resolution of the legacy issue is easily still ten years away.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[piisfish 140]

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Light aircraft at 2500 agl go about 120-150kts, which means you only have to look through an angle of about 45 degrees. That's easy to do.

that 45 degrees rule again huh ??

Do you check for traffic/have traffic checked on each jump ? Honestly ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[billvon 3,058]

>Do you check for traffic/have traffic checked on each jump ? Honestly ?

When I am in a position to do so - yes.

Let's take my usual jumping habits. 90% are team jumps with camera. Outside center and camera open the door; both check for traffic. (Amy does a pretty good job.) Then we climb out and go.

5% of the time we don't have camera. Amy and I open the door; we both check for traffic (including under the plane) then go.

5% of the time are other jumps, bigways and whatnot. If I am one of the first out the door (i.e. front/rear float) I always check for traffic before climbing out. This both helps clear the airspace and gives the previous group some more time.

[rehmwa 2]

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>et's take my unusual jumping habits..... check for traffic. ......check for traffic .......check for traffic before climbing out. ...

there's your problem - you should be staring blankly at the little lights so you can bail out when the green one gets bright

(faces because some people believe in this)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[riggerrob 643]

... and even other people on the plane (looking out other windows) can all help the spotter clear the airspace more effectively.

[JohnRich 4]

Re: When is someone going to hit a plane in FF again?

Why? Is there a betting pool somewhere?

[chrismgtis 0]

I'm in that phase of AFF where we are starting to be instructed on being aware of what is outside of the plane when we jump, where the DZ is, etc.

You're right it's a good idea to look around for traffic. You have to admit, it's a big sky and we can make mistakes. At this point I would rather jump out of the plane before looking at an odd angle outside of the plane risking falling out unstable lol.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[MotherGoose 0]

I also stumbled upon this doozy !!! Anyone remember this one . . . http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/gallery/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Video_Vault&image=Bomberflyby.mpg&img=&tt=mpg

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[Samurai136 0]

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Light aircraft at 2500 agl go about 120-150kts, which means you only have to look through an angle of about 45 degrees. That's easy to do.

That is very misleading. 45 degrees is only true assuming, Zero winds aloft, 120kt speed and roughly 2 miles (10K) of freefall. The other aircraft will be at 45 degrees only at the moment of exit.

Once you consider the approach vector and winds aloft, the aircraft you are looking to avoid is actually more than 2 miles away (more than 45 degrees).
In addition, if first out is spotting traffic for an entire otter load, depending on the number of groups, the spotter is checking for traffic that may be 2 to 5+ miles out.

As a general knowledge question, for the group, how long would you spend scanning 15 to 65 square miles of space looking for a 30 to 65 ft wing?

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[billvon 3,058]

>45 degrees is only true assuming, Zero winds aloft, 120kt speed and
>roughly 2 miles (10K) of freefall. The other aircraft will be at 45
>degrees only at the moment of exit.

It's still about 45 degrees. Winds aloft don't affect the picture unless winds at the other aircraft's level are significantly different.

>As a general knowledge question, for the group, how long would you
>spend scanning 15 to 65 square miles of space looking for a 30 to
> 65 ft wing?

Generally about 15 seconds.

Try this experiment. Drop an ant on a piece of pavement. Look away for a second, then look back. See if you can find him. Most people can, instantly - even though they are looking for a few-millimeter-long ant from a height of a meter and a half. Why? Because our eyes are excellent at picking moving objects out against a static background.

From altitude, that plane is EASIER to see than that ant when we're standing over it - it occupies more of our field of vision. That's why VFR pilots can safely fly along using only their eyes to detect planes 2 miles away. Indeed, we have a much easier job than they do - we will always see motion against a background, they will only see motion if they are not on a collision course.

As I've said before, getting good at clearing airspace can take some practice. But it's worthwhile to learn how to do it - it can save your life and the lives of the people you're jumping with.

[riggerrob 643]

As I've said before, getting good at clearing airspace can take some practice. But it's worthwhile to learn how to do it - it can save your life and the lives of the people you're jumping with.