Aircraft vs. 4-way teams

[Ron 10]

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the only one I didn't get an answer to was the one about these two teams being in the current top 10 or not.

Sorry, I didn't see that question.

From skyleague.com:
"Mystic Rhythmns scored a solid 9.7 average, which moved the team up to number seven of the NSL Rankings for the AA Class. If not for four infringements and some glitches in round six, a 10-point average was well within their grasp. Vortex struggled with exits and posted a 4.3 average despite an improvement in block work since the previous meet. The team continues to hit the set goals."

One is tied for 7th the other is ranked 29th. So for one team it was an important meet.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[popsjumper 2]

Thanks for the link, Ron...I see Mystic Rhythmns (MESL) is also at the top of the heap in their league which would give them a wild card entry anyway....ahhhh but I see Ideal Cut right on their butt by only 0.5 points....

Hmmmm, important meet, yes.

Quoting MESL Director Randy Connell, "...The door of the 99 is not suitable for 4-way competition." - call me stupid but I fail to see it. GSL ran Beech99 loads at Monroe IIRC, with no complaints from any one of the teams - top to bottom.

Thanks again...still sucks they had to leave, though.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[PhreeZone 20]

Not all Otters are the same and not all Beech 99's are the same. Duece refered to the one he jumped as having a camera peg, I never saw one on the 99 in question. There is more then 1 but less then 5 99's flying jumpers in the US, no two of them are identical is my impression.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[randyjumps 0]

As the league director who made the call in this instance, allow me to make a few points....

The host DZ in question was promised a caravan from another nearby DZ (I will be kind). What actually arrived was a Beech 99.

All competitors present walked out and examined the bird in question and an actual vote was taken. Factors involved in the decision were:

Door - almost the same rectangular dimensions as an Otter (maybe bigger in a direct linear measure) BUT - the major problem is that the top of the door curves inboard with the skin of AC. Head-jams were not going to be possible, and were needed on 2 of the six exits. The lateral (left to right) difference means that the top of the door is 6-8 inches further "into" the bird than the floor.

Camera - while there is a step on the bird, there is no outside rail. This would leave the cameraflyers closer than is best for the teams, and one of their hands would actually be inside a plastic housing duct (of some type) that was already broken. Further, the relative tail height was low enough to make me wonder about safety issues. Remember camera positioning for 4way calls for the camera to be higher at the door than (for example) tandem video where the flyer has to get low to get the passengers face.

Flight Profile - while direct prop blast would not be a huge issue because the pilot had been trained to fully feather the left hand prop, jump run had to be at 100 knots indicated to be safe. That's a bit stiff.

Additional factors included in my thoughts, but not discussed with the teams were:

INTERNATIONAL flavor of the weekend's competition - as Eric has so ably pointed out and Ron has followed up on.

The fact that one of the teams is actively training for Nationals and has at least a 50/50 chance to be in the running for a medal. (For the record, if that team had not had its infringements and minor funnel in one round their average for this meet would have been an 11, which would have put them at the top of the leaderboard). At this stage of the season, they need every valid skydive they can muster. A caravan would have been acceptable, a Beech 99 was not.

The host DZ did their job. This is a fact that was clearly understood and acknowledged by the teams.
While I was not pleased by the situation, I took the steps that I felt were in the best interests of MY clients(the teams). That's the way business is done. I apologized to the DZO. When I was informed that the aircraft provider had decided to waive the ferry fee, I was immensely relieved for the DZ's sake.

The responsibility for the decision lies exclusively with me. I asked the teams to vote, but the actual decision was mine. I still stand behind that decision. I do regret the circumstances that made the decision necessary. Thank you to those who have contributed to this thread in a positive fashion.

Randy Connell
D19133 AFF-I RJ-FS
Director, Mideast Skydiving League

[matthewcline 0]

In another thread a question was asked, "what is a man?".

Randy is the Definition. He stood up and made his decision based on many factors and didn't hide from it.

Ok back to the thread.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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The people I was thinking of when I started this thread are also the same jumpers who I have seen simply bitch out a low time jumper for not sitting quite right in an Otter, instead of suggesting a more comfortable way to sit. Same jumpers who I've seen kick a 1/2 packed canopy out of the way since they were the team and they needed their spot to pack. The same jumpers who have taken 15 seconds in the door to setup after the green light is on (and after the spot was good, regardless of the green light), screwing the rest of the load.

Those are the folks that are not all around skydivers, thinking only of themselves, not about the sport.

Dave, do I know you? Because according to your post you know me. As a professional packer of 10 years, I would hardly kick someone's half-packed rig out the way because I needed my space. The person (at least on my team) making the decision to "wait 15 seconds after the green light and a good spot" is an experienced jumper of 30+ years and 4900+ jumps... we are not trying to screw the load or get a perfect spot. I have landed off on several team jumps, just like everybody else. People, like green lights, are fallible. Don't know about bitching out newbies... you'd have to give a more specific example. Generally my team doesn't talk much in the plane... we're focused on the dive, and unnecessary discussion (especially heated, emotional yelling at newbies) is a distraction that takes away from our performance.

Are you an experienced 4-way competitor? If you claim to be please give details... I'm sure several people here would be interested. If not, I suggest you try discussing this with an expert who can explain to you that a Beech 99 is not an appropriate aircraft for competition 4-way for a multitude of reasons already stated by others. I won't claim to be that expert; you can do your own research.

Being an all-round skydiver is a good thing, and I won't hold it against anybody, but that doesn't mean everyone has to go that route. Your claim that we should all be all-round skydivers just because it's better is as absurd as if I were to say that everyone should be a hard-core 4-way competitor.

Do we have a "right" to a specific aircraft? In the nationals, yes... it's in the rulebook. The rest of the time, no. But what we DO have is the right to choose what DZ we go to, for any reason whatsoever, including the jumplane. This is America, remember? It's called capitalism. If you don't like it, there are plenty of countries in the middle east and africa that would love to have you.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[AggieDave 6]

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Dave, do I know you? Because according to your post you know me.

Nope, don't think we've ever met. I don't know you from Adam, so I would not have claimed to know you.

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I would hardly kick someone's half-packed rig out the way because I needed my space. The person (at least on my team) making the decision to "wait 15 seconds after the green light and a good spot" is an experienced jumper of 30+ years and 4900+ jumps... we are not trying to screw the load or get a perfect spot. I have landed off on several team jumps, just like everybody else. People, like green lights, are fallible. Don't know about bitching out newbies... you'd have to give a more specific example. Generally my team doesn't talk much in the plane... we're focused on the dive, and unnecessary discussion (especially heated, emotional yelling at newbies) is a distraction that takes away from our performance.

If you think I'm talking about one person or one team or one weekend or even a single DZ, you're putting words in my mouth.

As for spotting, you're talking to the guy that learned how to spot with winds aloft and also with winddrift indicators. It would seem that I'm an instructor at a rarity now-days...a turbine DZ that teaches spotting to our students and we make our students spot loads to prove it. The green light means clear to jump via the pilots communications with ATC and others. It does not mean be a green light lemming and instantly leave the AC.

The instances I was thinking of was taking full Otter loads to the "hollywod" spot for the first group (which HAD to be the 4-way team even though there were other RW groups with more people in the plane). A perfect spot for a large turbine, as I'm sure you know, isn't the perfect spot for the first group. If there are a large number of smaller groups the first group and the last group may have to work a bit to make it back.

You can't deny that in the 6 years that you state you've been in the sport you haven't seen the bad like I've talked about.

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Are you an experienced 4-way competitor? If you claim to be please give details... I'm sure several people here would be interested. If not, I suggest you try discussing this with an expert who can explain to you that a Beech 99 is not an appropriate aircraft for competition 4-way for a multitude of reasons already stated by others. I won't claim to be that expert; you can do your own research.

Although I'm a competitive skydiver, I have never claimed to be good enough at competitive RW to compete in a local meet. Although I do enjoy doing RW when I get the opportunity. If you read the thread you'll see that it was a comment made in regards to the situation that you elude to that got my memory kicking. Having just got back from a boogie that is all about helping out low time jumpers or jumpers without experience in a discipline added fuel to my fire. It was simply about people loosing sight about what many people feel like this sport is about. Its about giving back to the sport. Its about the low time jumper and bringing them up with as much help as you can give.

I also thought about Collegates a few years ago where I competed in Style for a laugh. There were jumpers wigging out about having to jump a 182. Some were saying that the 182 wasn't a proper AC to use in competition, even for a round of style.

Honestly, I got a private chuckle having to show the jumpers how to sit in the 182 safely and comfortably, but I was more then happy to help them learn about the 182.

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Being an all-round skydiver is a good thing, and I won't hold it against anybody, but that doesn't mean everyone has to go that route. Your claim that we should all be all-round skydivers just because it's better is as absurd as if I were to say that everyone should be a hard-core 4-way competitor.

So it doesn't matter if you can barely land your canopy if you're a top level RW or FF competitor. Or that you can't complete an 8-way even though you're a top name swooper?

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This is America, remember? It's called capitalism. If you don't like it, there are plenty of countries in the middle east and africa that would love to have you.

I'm not 100% sure how you telling me to leave the country for expressing my thoughts is un-American, but whatever you like to believe is fine with me.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skydance1954 0]

***The instances I was thinking of was taking full Otter loads to the "hollywod" spot for the first group (which HAD to be the 4-way team even though there were other RW groups with more people in the plane). A perfect spot for a large turbine, as I'm sure you know, isn't the perfect spot for the first group. If there are a large number of smaller groups the first group and the last group may have to work a bit to make it back.


Absolutely correct, Dave. Which is why our particular team attempts as often as possible to spot for the whole plane, not the team. I also learned to spot with wind drift indicators and winds aloft, and we had to spot for rounds. Spotting for Stillettos and Crossfires is a hell of a lot easier than PCs and Paps. Most of the time, we're climbing out on red so that the small freefly groups in the back will be "in the zone" and not out in BFE. However, our efforts are largely ignored.

***You can't deny that in the 6 years that you state you've been in the sport you haven't seen the bad like I've talked about.

Actually, his comment about being in the sport for 6 years is not exactly accurate. Yes, he has been actively jumping for 6 years, packed since he was 13 years old, but he was raised on the DZ. And yeah, he HAS seen the bad you've mentioned. As have I.


***I also thought about Collegates a few years ago where I competed in Style for a laugh. There were jumpers wigging out about having to jump a 182. Some were saying that the 182 wasn't a proper AC to use in competition, even for a round of style.

***Honestly, I got a private chuckle having to show the jumpers how to sit in the 182 safely and comfortably, but I was more then happy to help them learn about the 182.

I get the same chuckle. However, you've got to give these kids a little slack. They probably didn't start in a Cessna, and until that meet, maybe they'd never jumped one at all. It's one thing to go from a 180 or a 182 to an Otter or a Skyvan. Quite another to to the other way around. It's all in how you're raised.

Think of how the older pilots in WW2 felt when they got their hands on a Mustang or an ME109 when they started out at 18 years old in a Fokker DIII or a Spad? They probably told all kinds of tales to the younger pilots, who in turn would look at them as if they grew a third eye. But the reality was the rules of the game hadn't changed. Everything was simply faster.

As for their opinion of a Cessna not being a proper jumpship for style, well just tell them they're in a time warp, and it's 1972 again. Maybe you can even find an old Stylemaster with 1 1/2 shots, a Phantom 24 and a PC for them to jump. Then see how they stumble around the plane.

***So it doesn't matter if you can barely land your canopy if you're a top level RW or FF competitor. Or that you can't complete an 8-way even though you're a top name swooper?

Yes, it does matter if you can't properly land your canopy, because that's a safety issue. Everyone should be a competent, safe pilot for their choice of equipment. However, there is no requirement to do 8-way at all. If swooping is your thing, then, yeah, it does not matter if you can't do an 8-way, or a 4-way or freefly, or anything else. This sport is so diverse now, that everyone can pick their bliss and run with it. Personally, I like RW. Does that make me a poor skydiver because I can't turn a style set in under 8 seconds? Or that I can't fly on my head to save my soul? I think not. Someone who's a kick-ass head-down champion, but can't turn a 4-point random 4-way still deserves respect. And vice versa.

Back in the day when all there was, was style, accuracy and RW, the style freaks couldn't do RW, and the "fun jumpers" couldn't turn style. But each was good at what they did. Each focused on the discipline that they thought was the most fun for them. Things haven't changed all that much. There's just more flavors to choose from.

The reality is that unless you've got really, really deep pockets, and lots of time, most people cannot afford to even get "really good" at multiple disciplines. Those that do, usually work each one, one at a time. For a long time. And either they work at the DZ, have some direct link to the owners (Dad, Mom, brother, business partner, whatever), or they are wealthy. The rest of us have to get by with real jobs, etc. and do what we can afford to do.

Really, I don't care what discipline you choose to chase. I just want you to come out and skydive, have fun, and join me around the bonfire in the evening and tell stories about your day. Student, competitor, fun jumper, professional skydiver, whatever. In the end, that's what it's all about, sharing the good vibes from what we do.

-M

Mike Ashley
D-18460
Canadian A-666

[AggieDave 6]

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Really, I don't care what discipline you choose to chase. I just want you to come out and skydive, have fun, and join me around the bonfire in the evening and tell stories about your day. Student, competitor, fun jumper, professional skydiver, whatever. In the end, that's what it's all about, sharing the good vibes from what we do.

That I can wrap my head around.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Deuce 1]

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Not all Otters are the same and not all Beech 99's are the same. Duece refered to the one he jumped as having a camera peg, I never saw one on the 99 in question. There is more then 1 but less then 5 99's flying jumpers in the US, no two of them are identical is my impression.

My bad. I've attached a frame grab that should show the position necessary to even get the initial presentation even with a .3 lens on.

It's tough. One hand only, right arm completely extended, holding the end of the "closet pole" with just the thumb and a couple fingers.

It's doable. I wouldn't really want a camera step because I just don't want to be any closer to that horizontal stabilizer. I've got over a 1000 jumps out of King Airs, so I'm not afraid of horizontal stabilizers in general, but that 99 one seems ominously close and low.

I think Kallends suggestion of having "Time" start after exit is really interesting.

Edit: Because my team is hardcore, we've talked a lot about the different types of aircraft we've jumped and potential solutions. At Lodi they usually start with the King Air, go to the 99, start up the other 99 and then get the Otter going.

Lodi does like 200 tandems a day. It's amazing.

Anyhow, it would come down to mock-ups so that every door-jamb could be practiced. On the Pac and the 99, the step is outside and below the door, like a running board on a truck. When you are out there, the distance from the step to the grab bar is about the same as an Otter, but the hole in between is smaller.

What would have to happen would be for the inside competitors to have a foot outside the aircraft down on that step. The jam would be WAY different for the same exit as it would be in the Otter.

I just think everybody is pissed because they've got 20 years of evolution of jams and exits out of Otters that are going to have to be reinvented for new aircraft.

It's not just 4 way teams. Tandem masters have been bitching as they learn the pac, as have camera fliers (the prop blast is a biotch)

Change causes bitching. Whatever.

and Hello Randy Connell! I am proud to have once been your camera flier. You have a great attitude as a competitor and as the poor knucklehead in charge of those meets! Cheers!

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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I think Kallends suggestion of having "Time" start after exit is really interesting.

A few years back, a series of suggestions were made officially to overhaul formation skydiving. I don't remember all the suggestions, but one of them was to start the clock at the break of the 1st point (essentially eliminating the exit), and the other was to shorten working time to 15 seconds... I think the dive sequency length may have changed also.

In a rare display of wisdom, the IPC (or whatever official agency did this) took a national poll of competitors over the suggestions. It was rejected by a ratio of like 97%. Obviously the shorter working time is an awful idea... 35 Seconds is short enough, but most 4-way competitors really like the exit and "the hill" and all that comes with it. Makes the discipline more interesting and more challenging.

So, while the suggestion of starting time after exit is valid, I think the competitors have spoken.

At the same time, including the exit means each aircraft is unique, and that's difficult for up-and-coming teams. Being on one of those teams, and having only a Casa availible to my home DZ until July this year, I can attest to that. That's part of why we left this meet... our team really needs every otter exit we can get to prepare for nationals, and we've already lost half the season to the Casa.

Incidentally, I'd like to point out that at the international level RW jumpers ARE expected to jump out of whatever's availible, though they are informed well ahead of time what it will be. In just the last few years, that has included Otters, tailgate helicopters, and Porters (which have a side-door, but on the opposite side, changing the entire continuity plan). It's not so much that we're all snobs as we want the maximum number of exits possible out of the aircraft that will be used at the competition. If nationals were out of a cessna 182, I would want lots of cessna jumps (that would sure simplify things, too... I wouldn't ever have to worry about spotting for the rest of the load, waiting on others to fly the plane, or having trouble finding a DZ with the right plane).

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[rehmwa 2]

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Most of the time, we're climbing out on red so that the small freefly groups in the back will be "in the zone" and not out in BFE. However, our efforts are largely ignored.

we've done that too - also, they never complain when the first group lands a couple tenths short and needs a ride either.......

we also, every single week (we normally get a first out as an RW team with fast canopies), give feedback to the pilot on whether we can further shorten up the spot during the day

If you have good spotters that are willing to work with the pilot, the problems go away

I've seen obnoxious 4-way teams that suck up the jump run. I've also seen obnoxious Freeflyers that do the same. I've also seen Freeflyers that insist on first out thus putting themselves and others in danger for exit order issues. As such, I hate the implication that this is just a RW issue.

Also, tandem masters that scream "GET OUT. GET OUT, etc" should be ashamed, their passengers don't know if the airplane is on fire or what their instructor seem to be panicking about.....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[quade 4]

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Also, tandem masters that scream "GET OUT. GET OUT, etc" should be ashamed, their passengers don't know if the airplane is on fire or what their instructor seem to be panicking about.....

Also, anyone that is NOT in the door and LOOKING out of it really has no business whatsoever impatiently yelling for people to jump out just because the light is green -- this includes the pilot.

ONLY the person in the door and looking out of the airplane can determine if it is safe to climb out.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rehmwa 2]

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ONLY the person in the door and looking out of the airplane can determine if it is safe to climb out.

Now, if we can only get people in the door to look out instead of at the little pretty lights next to the door....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AggieDave 6]

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Now, if we can only get people in the door to look out instead of at the little pretty lights next to the door....

That starts with the jumper's instructors when they had just a handful of jumps. It continues with the culture of the DZ. The culture of the DZ starts with the staff and the handful of "top" experienced jumpers.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[quade 4]

Every 4-way team (and pretty much everthing else) I've ever been on has had a designated spotter. About half the time that has been me since I fly camera and am by the door anyway. Red light, door open and they look. Green light, somebody let's them know by putting a thumbs up in the spotter's view or patting them on the back. Spotter either gives a thumbs up and climbs out or gives a hold sign.

Pretty freekin' simple.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skydance1954 0]

Our 4-way team is the same. I'm camera, so I'm first out and I check the spot. One of the other team members keeps an eye on the lights in case it turns green while I'm checking outside.

However, your comment about the DZ culture is quite correct. There are elements at some places that say "When the light turns green, you leave, period. No spotting, no checking, you leave." Since new jumpers really are not taught how to spot, they blindly obey. How can they not? They've never known any other environment. Old salts, however, stick to their original training and check for planes, clouds and where they actually are over the ground. Most times I call it early, but sometimes I'll wait because we're still 2 miles from the DZ. This makes the people in the back pretty nervous, and sometimes downright grumpy, but I'm usually right. Not always, mind you, I'm human, too. The sad thing is, when I am right, I've yet to have anyone in the back come up to me and say thanks.

We suffer from the same issues that most teams do - folks see us in our little world, focused on the job at hand and mistake it for arrogance or unfriendliness. We don't interact much during the day, but we do take pains to talk to people at the end of the day.

[rehmwa 2]

Nice post.

Last weekend we got the green. Directly on our exit line was 2 planes. It warranted a full go around.

I think the 4 way team would have missed them, but those farther back might have seen something closer.......

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[popsjumper 2]

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...Also, anyone that is NOT in the door and LOOKING out of it really has no business whatsoever impatiently yelling for people to jump out just because the light is green -- this includes the pilot.

ONLY the person in the door and looking out of the airplane can determine if it is safe to climb out.

One of my MAJOR pet peeves...STFU is a good reply to it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[GQ_jumper 4]

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In Reply To
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Most of the time, we're climbing out on red so that the small freefly groups in the back will be "in the zone" and not out in BFE. However, our efforts are largely ignored.

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we've done that too - also, they never complain when the first group lands a couple tenths short and needs a ride either.......

[rehmwa 2]

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After the half mile walk back in one of them approached me and gave me a lecture about how next time i'm going to take that long in the door I need to tell the pilot to turn on the light sooner so we don't fuck them again.

Oh, there's enough stories like this to fill a book. And it's always some "tough guy" too.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GQ_jumper 4]

And it's always some "tough guy" too.

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The only reason I didn't snap back was because back then I was too new in the sport to know any better. Had he done it let's say last weekend, he wouldn't have felt like much of a tough guy after he had said it

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[randyjumps 0]

Duece! Good to hear from you man! Congrats on the regular team this year!

Remember - "Hyrostatic shock is bullsh*t!!!"

[skydance1954 0]

Last summer I exited right as the light turned green, my buddy and I took less than 5 second in the door to set up our piece, neither of us made it back to the DZ but all the freeflyers had no issue landing on the DZ. After the half mile walk back in one of them approached me and gave me a lecture about how next time i'm going to take that long in the door I need to tell the pilot to turn on the light sooner so we don't fuck them again.

[riggerrob 643]

Half of those spotting errors can be prevented by the first guys getting their heads out of their asses ... err ... eyeballs outside the airplane for the last couple of minutes before the green light comes on.

The silliest thing is skydivers sitting in the airplane, with their minds in neutral until the green light comes on, then trying to grasp the spotting picture as they fly past the spot.

A bit of "pre-spotting" can prevent a lot of walking.