kallend 2,026 #101 August 2, 2006 QuoteIt is very nice that the USPA has managed to make it difficult to keep jumping when time and resources are hard to come by. It is no wonder that the sport is shrinking. Without USPA we'd be under lots more onerous rules from the FAA. Don't blame USPA for your own decisions and actions. The cost of the annual USPA dues is trivial compared to the costs of equipment, reserve repacks, jump tickets, etc. I figure USPA accounts for less than 1% of my annual skydiving expenditures.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #102 August 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteThanks to the USPA's bullshit rules, the anniversary turned to shit. I am no big fan of USP, but USPA bullshit rules had nothing to do with you lack of logging or being able to verify your jump history. You chose not to participate in USPA and now it is their fault? Sorry doesn't wash. Here are a couple of quotes from my post - "I have the logged jumps and training requirements for a C license." and "Even though I had video and stills that clearly showed me skydiving successfully, I was turned away." I take it that you missed those parts? Logbooks were presented. Older logbooks with student training info were provided. A current logbook with logged and signed off jumps was presented. The last jump logged was a successful 16 way at Lodi, signed off by none other than Bill Dause himself. It was a Bill load that went as planned. The currently logged jumps were outside the 30 day window that is now required by the USPAs new bullshit rules. By about two weeks, if memory serves correctly. Sorry I wasn't absolutely 100% crystal clear in my explanation of all the details. I am a USPA member and I have never allowed my membership to lapse. I'll admit to having made some bad decisions as to logging jumps and failing to get licensed when I should have. My bad, for sure. Up until 2001, there was no USPA rule against an experienced, but unlicenced jumper being able to skydive. It didn't used to be a problem. It has been since 2001. I usually run into someone I know, or who knows me, when I visit other DZs. It just so happened that on a date that it really mattered to me that I made a jump, I was prevented from jumping due to bullshit USPA rules. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #103 August 2, 2006 Do you have a current driver's license? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #104 August 2, 2006 QuoteI jumped the jet in 1993. I was doing two point 40 ways at the WFFC that year. A team I was on almost won the 20 way meet at Lodi in 1989. I have jumped in Hawaii, Florida, Massachusetts, Maine, Oregon, and Washington, as well as California. I have plenty of experience and I consider myself to be a safe skydiver. With all that experience....How hard would it have been to take a test? QuoteThanks to the USPA's bullshit rules, the anniversary turned to shit. Really, how hard is it to get a license? QuoteI have a life outside of skydiving. I don't have the time and resources to be jumping all the time. It is hard to get away to go skydiving. I have been averaging 10-25 jumps a year. I absolutely wish I could jump more, but life has a way of preventing it. But if you had even a "C" license you would have been fine. Again is getting a license all that hard? QuoteIt is very nice that the USPA has managed to make it difficult to keep jumping when time and resources are hard to come by. It is no wonder that the sport is shrinking. Hey, I don't like the USPA very much. They have a way of ignoring people all the time. However, they are the only game in town and they do manage to keep the FAA off of our backs a bit. Trust me, you would rather deal with the USPA than the FAA. Really, get a license and then this would/will not be an issue."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #105 August 2, 2006 >currently logged jumps were outside the 30 day window that is now >required by the USPAs new bullshit rules. They're not that new. Currency is pretty important in this sport, and you weren't current. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #106 August 2, 2006 QuoteThey're not that new. Currency is pretty important in this sport, and you weren't current. In all defense, HE might have been current. But the USPA rules say he was not. Of course it is his fault for trying to bend the USPA rules to fit him and getting upset when they didn't. He should have gone to a non-USPA DZ or just gotten a license."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #107 August 2, 2006 So isn't this as simple as buying a USPA membership, making a currency jump with at least a coach...then getting your licenses in order???? Christ! Do you also refuse a driver license and still drive? A voter registration card and bitch about not being able to vote??? It's called society and we have a few rules as silly as that may seem. That USPA membership also include some insurance that could save you some huge headaches at non-USPA dz's should you do some property damage to anything! Come on ... play nice with the rest of us! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #108 August 2, 2006 Quote>currently logged jumps were outside the 30 day window that is now >required by the USPAs new bullshit rules. They're not that new. Currency is pretty important in this sport, and you weren't current. Bill, did you read both of my posts? I have been a USPA member since 1984. I have never let my membership lapse. As far as I see it, 2001 is pretty new for me. "IF" I had a C license, I would have been current by USPA's rules. Your statement that "you weren't current" is true, by the USPA's new rules. With the stroke of a pen, the rules changed. 45 days really isn't a long time. It happens that my last layoff from jumping was almost 8 months. July 29, 2005 to this spring. Fortunately I know the DZOs at the DZs I usually go to. I showed up, talked to the DZO, and discussed the layoff. I had properly prepared for my return by practicing EPs at home and I got on the next load without a problem. I did a solo, practiced turns, flips, barrel rolls, stood on my head, tracked for a 2500' straight off the flightline, opened, and landed within 5' of the target I selected at 2500'. On the next load we launched a 4way and turned a few points. Currency is more about skills and ability than calendar time. It was great to get back into the air. If I was forced to pay some 200 jump coach 75.00 to jump with me, I would have kept driving to Lodi. If Lodi wasn't 263 road miles and 5.5 hours driving time, one way, I would jump there all the time. As far as how easy it is to take a test, I don't have a problem taking the tests. If there was a DZ closer than 2 hours from me, taking a test would be a breeze. Try scheduling the A, B and C tests for a Saturday night. So far, I have been unable to work it into my schedule, and an ST&As. There isn't an ST&A that lives anywhere close to where I do. I'll get to it soon. I am not happy with the hassles I have gone through, but I brought them on myself. No arguments there. I have been rearranging the priorities in my life so that I can get more involved in the sport again. This may result in some major changes in my life, like a divorce. I hope that it doesn't come to that. I have been jumping way longer than I have been married. The point of the thread is that there are reasons why participation in the sport is declining. The USPAs rules are one reason that mine has been diminished. There are other factors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #109 August 2, 2006 That is a wonderful honest wrinting of your experience... But I must disagree as to the USPA rules being a reason for declining jumpers...which I don't see at the DZ's in Florida...damn places are ALWAYS packed! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #110 August 2, 2006 QuoteSo isn't this as simple as buying a USPA membership, making a currency jump with at least a coach...then getting your licenses in order???? Christ! Do you also refuse a driver license and still drive? A voter registration card and bitch about not being able to vote??? It's called society and we have a few rules as silly as that may seem. That USPA membership also include some insurance that could save you some huge headaches at non-USPA dz's should you do some property damage to anything! Come on ... play nice with the rest of us! Please go back and re-read my postings completely. You have missed important content. It will be a cold day in hell before I pay anyone to jump with me due to "lack of currency" on my part. I'll go to Lodi and jump with Bill. Last time I stopped by there I didn't have my gear with me. Bill offered the use of a rig for free. Bill was ready to go do a Cessna load with me. I was on my way to Seattle, and I didn't have the time, or I would have done it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #111 August 2, 2006 Quote If I was forced to pay some 200 jump coach 75.00 to jump with me, I would have kept driving to Lodi. But maybe the 'coach' could have learned to fly a bit better... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #112 August 2, 2006 I don't think the contecnt I missed was so much the real issue here...as you've just stated again: "It will be a cold day in hell before I pay anyone to jump with me due to "lack of currency" on my part" seems like you just refuse to play by the rules...so just jump at non-USPA dz's and quitcherbitchin... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #113 August 2, 2006 QuoteThat is a wonderful honest wrinting of your experience... But I must disagree as to the USPA rules being a reason for declining jumpers...which I don't see at the DZ's in Florida...damn places are ALWAYS packed! Even in the summer??? Wow. I hate excessive humidity... Thanks for the level headed response. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #114 August 2, 2006 even in summer! f00k is it hot!?!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites funjumper101 15 #115 August 2, 2006 QuoteI don't think the contecnt I missed was so much the real issue here...as you've just stated again: "It will be a cold day in hell before I pay anyone to jump with me due to "lack of currency" on my part" seems like you just refuse to play by the rules...so just jump at non-USPA dz's and quitcherbitchin... Go back and read and re-read my postings until you comprehend the content completely. With greater comprehension, you would write better responses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 798 #116 August 2, 2006 Then i suppose I'll just agree to disagree.... have a nice time and good louck with your jumping! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,990 #117 August 2, 2006 >It happens that my last layoff from jumping was almost 8 months. > July 29, 2005 to this spring. Fortunately I know the DZOs at the DZs > I usually go to. I showed up, talked to the DZO, and discussed the > layoff. Right, that's what usually happens. When you go someplace where no one knows you, often you will be required to be current (per whatever the USPA or DZ rules are) and pay for a jump with a coach/instructor if you're not. That's more often a safety issue than a USPA issue though. Back when I was S+TA at Brown, we'd occasionally get people who lied to get back in the air after a long layoff. "So when was your last jump?" "Uh, well . . . if it's more than 30 days I have to do a recurrency, right?" "Yeah." "Oh, then it was three weeks ago." It got to the point where we were making almost all those people do a recurrency jump. Not because we thought USPA was the end-all and be-all of skydiving, but because some of those guys were downright scary in the air. I recall one guy who we told he'd have to do at least a level-6 with an instructor if he wanted to jump again - he could not control his heading during the jump and he dumped unstable. If someone got pissy about it, I'd ask them if they knew anyone else who jumped. If they said "yeah, I jumped with Mad John last week at Lost Prairie" generally I'd let them jump; it's unlikely they're going to be able to make that up on the spur of the moment. If they said "I jumped at Perris last week" I'd give them a call and see if anyone knew this guy. But if they just said "yeah, I did a whole lot of jumping 29 days ago" and couldn't remember anyone they jumped with, then I'd make them do the recurrency. But again, that wasn't because I was enamored of USPA. It was because we wanted to make sure these people were safe in the air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites funjumper101 15 #118 August 2, 2006 Quote> If someone got pissy about it, I'd ask them if they knew anyone else who jumped. I agree. The problem I ran into at both DZs on my 20th anniversary was that the manifest gals were much less than cooperative. When I asked them to call and tell them that I was there and trying to jump, I got the total blowoff. They were pissy little bitches. I was polite as could be and very respectful. I didn't pitch a bitch or cop an attitude. After getting the blowoffs I left without making a jump. After talking to the DZOs at a later time, I received apologies and a free jump from one of them. The other was a bit less charitable, but agreed that the phone call should have been made, at the least. I am one of the few up jumpers that talks to tandem passengers before and after their jumps. I always make a point of thanking them for skydiving with us and asking them how they liked it. At DZs that require van rides to return to the airport, I'll drive the van for a load or three with no expectation of compensation. I'll catch tandems when the winds are up. I'll be the one that puts away the boarding ladder and hops up into the plane without it. I don't need to be asked to do these things. I just do them. I go out of my way to be pleasant and reasonable with the folks running the operation. There are enough dickhead upjumpers that are a hassle to DZ management. I refuse to be one of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rmsmith 1 #119 August 2, 2006 QuoteI should have a 4 digit or low five digit D license. As it stands now I never even bothered to get an A license. I have the logged jumps and training requirements for a C license. I'll have to get one as it is getting to be a pain in the ass to jump at DZs that are strict about the new USPA rules. Stick with a up-jumper DZ like Lodi that doesn't care to become assimilated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jsaxton 0 #120 August 2, 2006 Or he could just find me, I'm a coach and I dont charge anything ;) QuoteI don't think the contecnt I missed was so much the real issue here...as you've just stated again: "It will be a cold day in hell before I pay anyone to jump with me due to "lack of currency" on my part" seems like you just refuse to play by the rules...so just jump at non-USPA dz's and quitcherbitchin... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 798 #121 August 3, 2006 plenty of free coach jumps available...at least at every DZ I've been to. Why do I get the impression that isn't the real issue here though? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites zoobrothertom 5 #122 August 3, 2006 But hey, what do I know????...... _____________________________________ The reasons why membership is dropping! An additional factor is the increasing self-regulation is slowly making our sport less attractive.____________________________________ I'm back in the USA!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 798 #123 August 3, 2006 huh???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #124 August 3, 2006 I agree with the other posters on this thread that there is a big "Ch-Ching!" factor that is probably turning a lot of people off to the sport. Newly licensed, and want to do something other than a solo jump? Pay up. Oops - tandems have to go first - you just got bumped. Maybe we can get you a slot later today. There are exceptions, of course. Bill Dause and Ralph Hatley come immediately to mind, and I'm sure there are others. However, the sport is even more mainstream now than when I started ten years ago. It's more corporate and industrialized. It's not about the sport anymore. It's about shareholder value. Demographics wise, the population of the US is getting older too, and it logically follows that skydiving would decline as society matures, as it were. Other factors are suburban sprawl overrunning DZs that used to be out in the boondocks, a litigious, risk-averse society, economic uncertainty, rising fuel prices... It surprising there hasn't been an even bigger decline in USPA membership. mh"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #125 August 7, 2006 QuoteI am convinced that the problem of skydiver recruitment boils down to two words: Sticker Shock I was doing some work at Skydive Dallas this weekend. After the weekend I was talking to Ernie the chief head honcho with a mullet. And we were talking about this very thing. He keeps fantastic records and told me that about 10% of FJC students graduate AFF. Cost was a major reason. And this is when he hit me with what Dallas is doing and frnakly it floored me. If an AFF FJC student lands and buys his next level that day....It costs only 99 bucks. I thought that was great! Then I found out that if he lands and buys his next ticket....99 bucks. A student can do levels 2-7 for 99 bucks each this way! I was shocked, the DZ loses money on levels 2,3 and only breaks even on the rest. I will be very interested to see if this increases the ratio of FJC to graduation. I am really amazed by the deal."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next Page 5 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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funjumper101 15 #115 August 2, 2006 QuoteI don't think the contecnt I missed was so much the real issue here...as you've just stated again: "It will be a cold day in hell before I pay anyone to jump with me due to "lack of currency" on my part" seems like you just refuse to play by the rules...so just jump at non-USPA dz's and quitcherbitchin... Go back and read and re-read my postings until you comprehend the content completely. With greater comprehension, you would write better responses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #116 August 2, 2006 Then i suppose I'll just agree to disagree.... have a nice time and good louck with your jumping! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #117 August 2, 2006 >It happens that my last layoff from jumping was almost 8 months. > July 29, 2005 to this spring. Fortunately I know the DZOs at the DZs > I usually go to. I showed up, talked to the DZO, and discussed the > layoff. Right, that's what usually happens. When you go someplace where no one knows you, often you will be required to be current (per whatever the USPA or DZ rules are) and pay for a jump with a coach/instructor if you're not. That's more often a safety issue than a USPA issue though. Back when I was S+TA at Brown, we'd occasionally get people who lied to get back in the air after a long layoff. "So when was your last jump?" "Uh, well . . . if it's more than 30 days I have to do a recurrency, right?" "Yeah." "Oh, then it was three weeks ago." It got to the point where we were making almost all those people do a recurrency jump. Not because we thought USPA was the end-all and be-all of skydiving, but because some of those guys were downright scary in the air. I recall one guy who we told he'd have to do at least a level-6 with an instructor if he wanted to jump again - he could not control his heading during the jump and he dumped unstable. If someone got pissy about it, I'd ask them if they knew anyone else who jumped. If they said "yeah, I jumped with Mad John last week at Lost Prairie" generally I'd let them jump; it's unlikely they're going to be able to make that up on the spur of the moment. If they said "I jumped at Perris last week" I'd give them a call and see if anyone knew this guy. But if they just said "yeah, I did a whole lot of jumping 29 days ago" and couldn't remember anyone they jumped with, then I'd make them do the recurrency. But again, that wasn't because I was enamored of USPA. It was because we wanted to make sure these people were safe in the air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #118 August 2, 2006 Quote> If someone got pissy about it, I'd ask them if they knew anyone else who jumped. I agree. The problem I ran into at both DZs on my 20th anniversary was that the manifest gals were much less than cooperative. When I asked them to call and tell them that I was there and trying to jump, I got the total blowoff. They were pissy little bitches. I was polite as could be and very respectful. I didn't pitch a bitch or cop an attitude. After getting the blowoffs I left without making a jump. After talking to the DZOs at a later time, I received apologies and a free jump from one of them. The other was a bit less charitable, but agreed that the phone call should have been made, at the least. I am one of the few up jumpers that talks to tandem passengers before and after their jumps. I always make a point of thanking them for skydiving with us and asking them how they liked it. At DZs that require van rides to return to the airport, I'll drive the van for a load or three with no expectation of compensation. I'll catch tandems when the winds are up. I'll be the one that puts away the boarding ladder and hops up into the plane without it. I don't need to be asked to do these things. I just do them. I go out of my way to be pleasant and reasonable with the folks running the operation. There are enough dickhead upjumpers that are a hassle to DZ management. I refuse to be one of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #119 August 2, 2006 QuoteI should have a 4 digit or low five digit D license. As it stands now I never even bothered to get an A license. I have the logged jumps and training requirements for a C license. I'll have to get one as it is getting to be a pain in the ass to jump at DZs that are strict about the new USPA rules. Stick with a up-jumper DZ like Lodi that doesn't care to become assimilated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #120 August 2, 2006 Or he could just find me, I'm a coach and I dont charge anything ;) QuoteI don't think the contecnt I missed was so much the real issue here...as you've just stated again: "It will be a cold day in hell before I pay anyone to jump with me due to "lack of currency" on my part" seems like you just refuse to play by the rules...so just jump at non-USPA dz's and quitcherbitchin... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #121 August 3, 2006 plenty of free coach jumps available...at least at every DZ I've been to. Why do I get the impression that isn't the real issue here though? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zoobrothertom 5 #122 August 3, 2006 But hey, what do I know????...... _____________________________________ The reasons why membership is dropping! An additional factor is the increasing self-regulation is slowly making our sport less attractive.____________________________________ I'm back in the USA!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #124 August 3, 2006 I agree with the other posters on this thread that there is a big "Ch-Ching!" factor that is probably turning a lot of people off to the sport. Newly licensed, and want to do something other than a solo jump? Pay up. Oops - tandems have to go first - you just got bumped. Maybe we can get you a slot later today. There are exceptions, of course. Bill Dause and Ralph Hatley come immediately to mind, and I'm sure there are others. However, the sport is even more mainstream now than when I started ten years ago. It's more corporate and industrialized. It's not about the sport anymore. It's about shareholder value. Demographics wise, the population of the US is getting older too, and it logically follows that skydiving would decline as society matures, as it were. Other factors are suburban sprawl overrunning DZs that used to be out in the boondocks, a litigious, risk-averse society, economic uncertainty, rising fuel prices... It surprising there hasn't been an even bigger decline in USPA membership. mh"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #125 August 7, 2006 QuoteI am convinced that the problem of skydiver recruitment boils down to two words: Sticker Shock I was doing some work at Skydive Dallas this weekend. After the weekend I was talking to Ernie the chief head honcho with a mullet. And we were talking about this very thing. He keeps fantastic records and told me that about 10% of FJC students graduate AFF. Cost was a major reason. And this is when he hit me with what Dallas is doing and frnakly it floored me. If an AFF FJC student lands and buys his next level that day....It costs only 99 bucks. I thought that was great! Then I found out that if he lands and buys his next ticket....99 bucks. A student can do levels 2-7 for 99 bucks each this way! I was shocked, the DZ loses money on levels 2,3 and only breaks even on the rest. I will be very interested to see if this increases the ratio of FJC to graduation. I am really amazed by the deal."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
