Drop in the number of Skydivers

[NWFlyer 2]

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I just wish the media would do a better job covering skydiving accidents so as not to lead the general public to the conclusion that skydiving has not advanced in gear and safety over the years and is comparable to suicide.

We all do. But the sad reality of our sport is that the fatality rate remains (roughly) constant because we keep coming up with new and creative ways to kill ourselves.

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I hope I don't make a mistake and end up in the statistics. Study, practice, repeat. My first jump went perfect, I make my second and third tonight

I hope you don't, either. Keep that attitude with you well beyond your student program and you've got a great chance of staying alive to enjoy this sport for years to come. Welcome to skydiving.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[kelpdiver 2]

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I just wish the media would do a better job covering skydiving accidents so as not to lead the general public to the conclusion that skydiving has not advanced in gear and safety over the years and is comparable to suicide.

The advancements in some gear has improved safety *as measured in fatal accidents*. AADs, 3 ring (long time back), skyhooks potentially.

But otoh, the trend towards faster and more responsive canopies is fun but fatal, and the trend towards more compact rigs that hold ever smaller reserves isn't improving safety either. Helmets look better, but offer less impact protection than the old protecs.

Other than the Pac, we're not seeing new airplanes and rather are jumping out of increasingly old planes.

So what's the message you want to send out?

[Fast 0]

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I just wish the media would do a better job covering skydiving accidents so as not to lead the general public to the conclusion that skydiving has not advanced in gear and safety over the years and is comparable to suicide.

The advancements in some gear has improved safety *as measured in fatal accidents*. AADs, 3 ring (long time back), skyhooks potentially.

But otoh, the trend towards faster and more responsive canopies is fun but fatal, and the trend towards more compact rigs that hold ever smaller reserves isn't improving safety either. Helmets look better, but offer less impact protection than the old protecs.

Other than the Pac, we're not seeing new airplanes and rather are jumping out of increasingly old planes.

So what's the message you want to send out?

There is the caravan too, of which, at least some of the ones in the skydiving fleet are near to new. If maintained properly planes like anything else mechanical can last a long time.

I am pretty perplexed by the decline in the number of people skydiving. We are sure fighting it at my home DZ.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Butters 0]

Thanks for the comments, helping a student learn. From the reading and research I was doing before starting the class I thought skydiving was becomming safer but now I am not sure. I'll keep reading more of these forums and try to get an even better understanding from the people that participate.

The freedom felt when exiting a plane allows me to smile like a little child and at this point I am unwilling to give that up regardless of the consequences. Maybe we have reached a point where a majority of people in our society don't know what that feels like and don't want to find out. I'm off to learn some more, practice some more and make some more AFF jumps.

Unrelated question: Do I owe beer the first time my instructors let me go during freefall? (Want to be prepared.)

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Elisha 1]

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Unrelated question: Do I owe beer the first time my instructors let me go during freefall? (Want to be prepared.)

No, but probably one of the only firsts you don't owe beer for. Once you graduate from the student program (even if you don't have 'A' yet), you automatically owe beer and for any 'first' you admit to subsequently.

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[DustyP 0]

I think this could be the uprising of the sport.
What needs to happen is, you gotta get people hooked before they can justify the price.
Make a deal like twice a year or however many time a jumpcenter can afford. It’s my personal guarantee that they would have way more repeaters that they would have first time jumpers. Then it’s residual income when they come back again and again.
Make a deal on like the first two jumps them tax them on the remaining and only sell packages of jumps. Be way more apt. Iv saw it time and time again. If Cigarette Company can get 200,000 new smokers every year, then theres gotta be something for skydiving, it’s the ultimate rush, and it barley kills people.

Here’s my personal experience
When I went jumping for my first time we had a group of about 10.
Anyone guessed what happed?
9 backed out they all said it was the money, luckily I have almost the best girlfriend in the world, she knew how badly I wanted to go so she jumped with me. The people that backed out test their NUMBER almost every weekend, jumping 80foot doubles on ATV’s. Its gotta be 80% cost, 10% fear, 10% laziness.

If theres something I don’t know, please inform me

DustyP

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[PhreeZone 20]

I can bet that not many of your casual ATV riders have spent $23000 on their sport in the last 6 years out side of gear costs. Skydiving is not cheap, I'm extimating with gear, jumps and everything else I'm up to $30000+ in the last 6 years - If I was to get out tommorrow my gear is worth maybe $3000. Compare that to if I had boughta boat and I could resell it for probally $18-20000. Its incredibly expensive nd its not getting cheaper at all. When I started in 2000 a tandem was $165 now its $190, regular jump tickets were $18 each, now they are $22.

Dropzones are in a very slim margin business. The Turbine planes that most people like to jump start at about $700,000 and go up to $1.5+ million. The bank wants their money. Fuel costs are getting higher then ever and the instructors want paid also.Out of a given regular ticket the DZ might make $3-5, out of a tandem/AFF they might make $75. That money has to pay for the DZO to live, grow their business and put money away for maintence, new rigs, etc.

I'm thinking in the next 5 years we will see a drop in the number of DZ's in the US by 10-20.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ladyskydiver 0]

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I was wondering what each one of you would attribute to "the drop in the the number of skydivers"

For me, between full-time school (20 credits this fall and the resulting homework), recovering from surgery (and having to pay the deductible ), and only working a part-time job now (instead of the full-time job that I used to have - aka significant pay cut), I don't have the money or time to get to the DZ.

It sucks, because I miss the sky and miss hanging out with my friends at the DZ. However, I'll go hang as soon as I've recovered enough from surgery to handle the drive out there. I can always take pictures.

Does that mean that I've stopped jumping permanently? No. It just means that right now, until I can jump on a consistent basis and be current (per my standards - aka 5-6 jumps per weekend twice per month minimum for me), I'm being forced to take a break.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[DustyP 0]

It really all depends man; two are pretty hardcore, I bet they have dropped over 25k each.
And they have only been racing about 3 years. ATV is big money and big business. They race nationals so they go all over. Fully built quad can run 40k+ so it all depends on the resources.
I just cant believe that skydiving is a lost cause, like I was saying if they could get more people to try it more people would buy it. They have no idea what they’re missing. I know what your saying about maintenance and overall functionality of a business it costly and nothing is getting cheaper but I think that if a industry as a whole wants to change, some type of plan needs to be implemented overall.

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[Eatgrass 0]

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While I do believe that cost is an issue I see the bigger issue being how we are treating the newbies .Hundred jump wonders getting their jumps paid for so they can "coach" someone is raping our sport one jump at a time.If cost is an issue then the newbies damn sure can't afford to have to pay someone to jump with them.It's time for the USPA and the dropzones to admit that this coaching thing is not working and take steps to change it.USPA already took the first step by making it so D-licence jumper can jump with the newbies but as long as the DZOs are protecting their staff by forcing students to jump with coaches I think you will continue to see the numbers fall.On top of cost you have the whole social side of this.The newbies are not jumping with new people so they are not making new friends.They are segregated from the general population so to speak.


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Well said, I agree....its killing the goose that laid the golden egg, I wonder if the newbies are getting value for money sometimes with low time C's coaching now, back in the early 90's many of the things they pay for was passed on freely as a given...it was called "giving back to the sport"...but as others have said---skydiving isn't for everyone
You have to be willing to sacrifice

relax kids, all you need is airtime airtime airtime and the ability to relax of course
Plan your dive and dive your plan bsbs

[slug 1]

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Well said, I agree....its killing the goose that laid the golden egg, I wonder if the newbies are getting value for money sometimes with low time C's coaching now, back in the early 90's many of the things they pay for was passed on freely as a given...it was called "giving back to the sport"...but as others have said---skydiving isn't for everyone
You have to be willing to sacrifice

[PhreeZone 20]

What was the last boogie you attended?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Eatgrass 0]

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Well said, I agree....its killing the goose that laid the golden egg, I wonder if the newbies are getting value for money sometimes with low time C's coaching now, back in the early 90's many of the things they pay for was passed on freely as a given...it was called "giving back to the sport"...but as others have said---skydiving isn't for everyone
You have to be willing to sacrifice

Agreed sort of

Except the goose that is laying the golden egg is still alive and well.

Yeah well sometimes its a slow death

Think Tandem & AFF. Thats all the DZO's and the "Pros's need.

"Giving back to the sport" dates back to at least the 60's not the 90's.

~Stayed around quite a while then~
It was around to about the time that BOD put in the coaching clauze & froze the good ole boys with D's out. I saw many JM's get tired of the grind, give up their rating and just go out and jump with newbies
cauze it was so much fun, their still pumped at that stage you know

No offence to the DZO's or the worker bee's they have to go where the money is . As long as the DZO's can have worker beee's and worker bee wanna bee's and the super $$$$ there will be fun jumping.

eventually all the real skydivers will be sitting home showing everyone the video of their skydive (their 1 one tandem). And the goose with their golden egg will continue to line up for their One skydive and video.

HAHAYHAHAHAHAHA good one!

Attendence at boogies is dropping off for fun jumpers but the goose with the golden egg is still attending the boogie and the industry is still happy $$$$.

A successful boogie used to be counted by # of plane loads. Now it's counted by number of tandems and video.

Follow the $$$$. Fun jumpers are tolerated at boogies for the atmosphere they provide to the Geese.

Not bitching at the DZ, just the way i see it.

Don't wanna believe it? Lets see what happens in another 10 yr's. I hope I'm wrong again.

R.I.P.

[Eatgrass 0]

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I don't think the cost is real issue here. In "good old times" skydiving was FREE in all ex-Soviet Union repulbics, as it was sponsored by the goverment as pre-military training (with no real obligations for you though). Now it is commercial almost everywhere, and the number of skydivers seems to have increased there - even though you have to pay $15 for a jump.

Makes sense to me, who would want to jump if it led to induction into the Rooskie army?

relax kids, all you need is airtime airtime airtime and the ability to relax of course
Plan your dive and dive your plan bsbs

[slug 1]

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What was the last boogie you attended?

Hi Pee Z

We sent you a PM to your question in spite of the fact that it was out of line. Whats the problem didn't like the response that we were at LP boogie a couple of weeks ago

R.I.P.

[Eule 0]

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I was doing some work at Skydive Dallas this weekend. After the weekend I was talking to Ernie the chief head honcho with a mullet.

I can't help but like somebody that has longer hair than I do. :) I hear he went on a big-way out of town someplace, too.

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If an AFF FJC student lands and buys his next level that day....It costs only 99 bucks.I thought that was great! Then I found out that if he lands and buys his next ticket....99 bucks.

Wow! When I jumped there in fall 2005, I understood that they did this for tandems (another tandem for $99) and maybe for AFF L1s (your L2 for $99) but after that it was 'list price'. My understanding could be wrong, though. I recall a banner hanging up above the student check-in window that mentioned the $99 price, and I think I remember some TMs pointing it out to their students after they landed.

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I was shocked, the DZ loses money on levels 2,3 and only breaks even on the rest.

I could be way off base here, but my understanding is that the DZO down there has a "day-time job" as well - in other words he doesn't _have_ to make money on the dropzone to buy groceries. Nobody likes to lose money all the time, but somebody who's got money coming from another source can afford to do it for a little longer before deciding to do something different.

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[airmagic 0]

The $99 deal they are doing at Dallas has definitely increased our number of AFF jumps made. I'm not sure how many new students are coming out because of it but what we have seen is an increase in return students from the First Jump Course. All of our students are also now more inclined to do multiple jumps in a day.

I'm not sure what the management was thinking but it does not get any better than this for an upcoming student.

-Mandy

[kallend 2,026]

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The $99 deal they are doing at Dallas has definitely increased our number of AFF jumps made. I'm not sure how many new students are coming out because of it but what we have seen is an increase in return students from the First Jump Course. All of our students are also now more inclined to do multiple jumps in a day.

I'm not sure what the management was thinking but it does not get any better than this for an upcoming student.

-Mandy

Apparently this program has been quite successful in increasing the number of people earning licenses at Skydive Chicago.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[somebodynew 0]

Why am I not skydiving when my first tandem changed my life and my second confirmed to me that this is something I could do? Why? I ask myself sometimes - but it comes down to money and other obligations I have - my son in college - the new house we just built - my elderly parents who have lost 2 children and couldn't handle another loss - and while I look at the crystal blue of the sky today and as I write this tears come to my eyes because instead of heading to the local DZ and the pursuit of dream I'm heading to the hospital for another mind numbing meeting - I will treasure what I have expierenced - come to this website to somehow feel a little part of this dream and continue to be one of the statistics that don't pursue the wonder of skydiving - and when the sky is this perfect and I hear the drone of a plane - my heart will ache for what could have been - and I my cry - I'm a woman after all - but the same determination that could have been used to become a real skydiver will help me do what I need to do for the good of my family - but I did fly - I did - joy

I used to cry, now I hold my head up high..
and you see me, somebody new...

[airtwardo 7]

...to become a real skydiver...


***

You already DID!

Blue Skies!!!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Ron 10]

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I could be way off base here, but my understanding is that the DZO down there has a "day-time job" as well - in other words he doesn't _have_ to make money on the dropzone to buy groceries. Nobody likes to lose money all the time, but somebody who's got money coming from another source can afford to do it for a little longer before deciding to do something different.

Very true. But that does not change things that much, several DZO's have other jobs/investments.

But the SDD owners running at a loss still amazes me. And the fact is they do it for two main reasons I can think of...One is to get new blood at the DZ an to ensure that they have a next generation of jumpers to sell tickets to, the other is just flat out love for the sport.

Either way I am really impressed. I like the SDC "A in one week" program as well. I have had great success getting people to go through all 8 levels in three days. Currency is the biggest factor in retention IMO.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[NWFlyer 2]

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One is to get new blood at the DZ an to ensure that they have a next generation of jumpers to sell tickets to, the other is just flat out love for the sport.

I think you nailed it - it's the combination of those two factors, otherwise, the DZ would continue along what appears to be the more common path, which is that the tandems and student program subsidize the experienced jumpers. I haven't done the math, but it makes intuitive sense that at most DZs, experienced jumpers pretty much cover the marginal cost of hauling their ass to altitude; it's the tandems and students on the plane that are covering the larger cost of operating the dropzone and the aircraft and the student program.

If Skydive Dallas were only concerned about an immediate influx of cash, they'd stick with that model; after all, it "works." But throw in the desire to support the growth and sustainability of the sport overall, and you have the program you've described.

It's pretty brilliant marketing: get someone to commit before they leave and get the cash in hand. A few may not come back after they've paid for their next jump (bonus money for the DZ), but even if they all do come back and you sell student jumps at cost or a loss, there's lots of long-term benefit. It builds loyalty to the DZ, and lots of residual benefits can possibly come out of that (referrals, gear sales, willingness to pitch in and support events, etc., etc., etc.). And you've just helped to create a new longer-term customer rather than a one- or two-time customer.

You're also (potentially) creating a better skydiver by making it easier to stay current early in their training. That's another potential savings for the student if it can minimize repeat jumps.

I admire a DZ that can take a long-term view towards marketing. It's smart business.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[riggerrob 643]

Apparently this program has been quite successful in increasing the number of people earning licenses at Skydive Chicago.

[wildfan75 1]

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That plan is popular with Europeans who take a week-long vacation to earn a skydiving license, similar to scuba schools, ski schools, etc.
Why more North American DZs do not use this proven program is a mystery to me.

Because Europeans get like 8 weeks of vacation a year...USA? Not so much. Lucky if you get three or four weeks (and that includes sick time!).

[Dolph 0]

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Because Europeans get like 8 weeks of vacation a year...USA? Not so much. Lucky if you get three or four weeks (and that includes sick time!).

I sure don't get 8 weeks.

In the last two years, I've gotten 4, all together.