Newbie questions about streamer.

[d123 3]

Hi guys,

I hope I'm posting in the right place. It's a combined gear/skydive/mall function question.

I've been told that a streamer it's a mall function in which the canopy it's not opening, the slider is not visible and it's a high speed mall function.
I've also learnt that the streamer may cause enough drag to position you standing up vertically and that would increase your fall rate even more than the average speed in box position (200 km/h). This mean that you need to fix it even faster than a bag-lock for instance since the fall speed it's faster.
I know that at 200 km/h (box position) I can't stay in a vertical position since it's unstable equilibrium and for sure I don't have the skills to do it. If the speed of the streamer is bigger than or around 200 km/h how come you are positioned vertically and stable?
I've also seen movies in which skydivers are trying a hybrid 3 way and the skydiver that was suppose to hang down vertically from the other 2 he just can't do it and he always bounce back to box position.

How come is that possible for a streamer to keep you standing up at speed bigger than 200 km/h and in the hybrid 3 way example is not?

Also I've just finishing watching the movie Fandango from 1985 with an amazing skydiving training&jump scene. In the movie they are jumping round parachutes and when they make practice on ground for mall functions they are talking about the streamer. Isn't it the streamer specific only for ram-air parachutes that have sliders?

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[Erroll 80]

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Isn't it the streamer specific only for ram-air parachutes that have sliders?

Quite the opposite, I believe. Streamers and Roman Candles were the better known mals on rounds.

[Ronaldo 0]

Pendulum effect. When you have a streamer the pilot chute and canopy drag are exerting a force that is pulling you up. Your weight is pulling you down and this is pretty much a stable system. It is kind of similar to hanging under a parachute. This effect is increased by the big distance between these two forces which is due to the length of the lines. Even small forces at this distance will generate enough momentum to stabilize your fall in a vertical position.
On a hybrid the distance between the points where the forces are applied is small. Also, since you need to start the hybrid from a belly position the difference in speed (and drag) is also very small which makes it difficult to reach stability immediately. Once you stand up, the drag force on your hands will work against your weight to help you stabilize.
Hope it helps
Blue skies!

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[Andy_Copland 0]

Also a bag lock can stand you up

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[d123 3]

Actually it does explain it. I think I get what you're saying.

The torque created by the streamer drag force is a lot more bigger compared to any torque created by any drag force of jumper body because the stream drag force is located so much far away relative to the center of mass (torque of a force is T = r X F).

So what's happening (if I get it right) is that when you are in a not so perfect vertical position in the company of a streamer any body movement that usually would have brought the body back to the box position now will still begin to rotate the body forward the box position but as the body begins to rotate the streamer torque will increase faster and bigger and will kill all the initial torques and bring the body again in the vertical position.

It's just like saying that because the center of pressure is so far higher than the center of gravity the vertical position become stable.

And can we still say for sure that the average speed in a streamer it's actually bigger than 200 km/h? I guess it depends how big the area of the streamer is.

Edit to add:
Actually I'm still confused because the drag force of the streamer will create tension in the lines that is applied directly to the raisers so when computing the torque of the streamer drag force we need to use the distance from the center of mass to the raisers and not the distance from center of mass to the streamer.

Never mind those details

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[jeremy_o 0]

I've been taught that the streamer is a "medium speed" mal, the drag from the BOS above you will be slowing you down. Anything above you should in theory slow you down, even if you are in the vertical position.

http://planetskydive.net/ - An online aggregation of skydiver's blogs.

[jurgencamps 0]

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And can we still say for sure that the average speed in a streamer it's actually bigger than 200 km/h? I guess it depends how big the area of the streamer is.

When you have a baglock and you are in a standup position, you will fall faster than when you are flat on your belly (only the pilotchute is slowing you down).
I don't believe that the same thing is true when you have a streamer. You are in the same position, but with a lot more fabric above your head. There are several (some?, at least more than those who survived a total mal ) skydivers who have survived an impact under a streaming canopy.

Jurgen

[michalm21 2]

You would really have to define a "mall function"
There are many malls (big, or small) that have many functions, with the primary one being selling goods to customers.

[jakee 1,563]

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You would really have to define a "mall function"
There are many malls (big, or small) that have many functions, with the primary one being selling goods to customers.

I was imagining a black tie dinner party in the food court

More to the point I would be very surprised if any form of mal where the canopy has actually left the bag didn't slow you down somewhat.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jheadley 0]

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1937&string=tandem%20cutaway

That's a video of a tandem having a streamer. You can see it falls slower than the videographer. I think it'd be similiar for a solo under a sport canopy.

[kkeenan 14]

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Also a bag lock can stand you up

I know there are a lot of variables, but I did a test jump once with a baglocked main, and the drag was almost unnoticable. I stayed in a belly-to-earth orientation right next to another jumper. There have been reports of cutaways from baglocks that would not pull loose from the rings due to low tension from the bag.

As has been said, a "streamer" was a round canopy mal, so named because of its long shape. Since this shape cannot occur with squares, I think this mal shoud have a new name, like a "blob", or something.

Kevin

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[Andy_Copland 0]

*puts fingers in ears and hums a tune*

Im not listening to anyone stupid enough to test jump a bag lock

On a serious note though i was reading that a bag lock (however unlikely) can stand you up. I vaguely remember watching one on SDM.com that had enough drag to get someone off their belly.

Personally i dont want to find out myself

Edit: Spelling

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[Andy_Copland 0]

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This is my first chop -- a horseshoe turned baglock mal at 12k. I chopped while on my back but as you can see, my reserve came out clean and fast.

It would be nice if the quality was better and you could slow it down to see exactly whats going on, but you get the idea

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=2746&string=mycutaway

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[kkeenan 14]

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Im not listening to anyone stupid enough to test jump a bag lock

Take your fingers out of your ears and stop that humming.

Just to clarify, I was wearing an extra reserve and was an employee of the Relative Workshop at the time. It was a test of an early RSL design. The cutaway worked just fine, but if I hadn't seen the risers sticking up in freefall, I wouldn't have known that bag was up there, that's how light the drag was. But, as I said, each bag / PC configuration can give a different drag result.

Kevin

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[riggerrob 643]

Streamers can occur with both round and square canopies.

Rounds have very little spreading force at the skirt, so it only takes a stray thread or a small tension knot to prevent rounds from opening.
My first malfunction was a streamer caused by the stabilizers - on a Cross Bow (Para-Commander copy) knotting together. It stood me upright, but I was descending way too fast to survive the landing.

With square canopies, a streamer will probably be caused by a tension knot around a stabilizer or slider.
I have also suffered a copy of streamers on squares. They also pulled me upright, but were big enough to slow me enough that I could "almost" talk with my student.

I have also suffered several bag locks.
The first bag lock was a solo jump and produced so little drag that I only had to work a little to stay on my belly. That malfunction descended at close to regular freefall.
When I suffered a bag lock with a tandem, the drogue pulled us upright, but I don't know exactly how fast we were descending ... something close to freefall ....

As for rate of descent ... a little drag (i.e. only a pilot chute) will only slow you slightly. A medium amount of drag (i.e. a streamer) will pull you upright - reduce your surface area - and increase your rate of descent.

[jheadley 0]

Here's a neat ground-to-air video of one too

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=3811&string=bag%20lock

[AFFI 0]

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As has been said, a "streamer" was a round canopy mal, so named because of its long shape. Since this shape cannot occur with squares, I think this mal shoud have a new name, like a "blob", or something.

Kevin

What would cause the streamer on a round parachute? The reason I am asking is because maybe the cause is the same for both rounds and squares so they are called the same. ? ?

[AFFI 0]

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I've been told that a streamer it's a mall function in which the canopy it's not opening, the slider is not visible

I am not certain that the slider is always not visible with a streamer malfunction. I have seen video footage of streamers where the slider was clearly visible, just not doing what it was designed to do.

Some skydivers will use the slider visibility to determine if they are having a slider malfunction; meanwhile altitude is getting burned up quickly. I think the best way of recognizing a slider malfunction most efficiently is to start counting after the PC is thrown. After 5 seconds the parachute should have a recognizable shape to it.

I still count while my parachute is opening, loud enough for my camera to pick up on it and was once asked why I still count. Just keeping it fundamental to better ensure survival I guess…


-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AFFI 0]

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I did a test jump once with a baglocked main, and the drag was almost unnoticable. I stayed in a belly-to-earth orientation right next to another jumper.

I would LOVE to test jump malfunctions in a controlled setting. Lucky you!

I have experienced the same thing with a bag lock, did not stand me up at all, just stayed belly to earth, barely could feel the bag lock trailing behind me.

-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Andy_Copland 0]

I was only teasing

Still im not sure i'd like to be the guinea pig for malfunction research. I sure hope that paid well

Ummm, just so i can get a picture here you test jumped a bag lock. You had 2 reserves as well as your bag locked main? Was one a belly reserve then?

Sorry to the original poster, not trying to hijack this.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[jheadley 0]

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A medium amount of drag (i.e. a streamer) will pull you upright - reduce your surface area - and increase your rate of descent.

Would this explain how on some canopies, if it snivels for a very long time, it finally inflates with a bang because of the increased airspeed in the upright position?

[d123 3]

Wow, I just wake up and I got like 20 replies
Thank you guys for all the answers.
mall function = malfunction with spell check from evolution mail (it was 7AM after a sleepless night and I didn't notice it)

This has been very educative.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[gravitywhore 0]

STREAMER BAG LOCK ALL NOT GOOD CHOP IT CHOP IT CHOP IT

[JohnMitchell 16]

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I've been taught that the streamer is a "medium speed" mal, the drag from the BOS above you will be slowing you down. Anything above you should in theory slow you down, even if you are in the vertical position.

I've chopped 2 streamers. Nothing medium speed about those at all! You'll feel as if you never left freefall. Don't mess around with them. Chop 'em.

And never, ever land a bag lock, 'cause after you land, the bag will hit you, and that really hurts.

[Andy_Copland 0]

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And never, ever land a bag lock, 'cause after you land, the bag will hit you, and that really hurts.

Im taxing that little nugget! *puts on jacket to go to DZ*

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.