Who is negligent for poor gear rental?

[justnalias 0]

Scenario:

Person just off student status (20-jumps) rents gear from gear store at DZ. Main is unpacked when received by new jumper. New jumper brings gear to packing mat. New jumper goes on skydive with instructor at DZ and gets a video. Hard pull occurs with rented gear. Instructor comes down, inspects gear, and confirms gear to be unacceptable to jump. New jumper loses handles and other gear during the jump.

Who should be covering cost of replacing the gear?

this did happen....but anonymous is just better

[billvon 3,070]

>Who should be covering cost of replacing the gear?

What did the rental agreement say?

[justnalias 0]

It may say that the DZ is responsible for everything in an alternate universe. At this point, however, this is about what seems to be ethically correct rather than legally binding.

[billvon 3,070]

>At this point, however, this is about what seems to be ethically correct . . .

It is ethically correct to keep your word. Therefore, if the jumper agreed to pay for everything, then he is responsible for all costs. If the jumper was told the DZ would pay for everything, then the DZ pays. If someone else wants to chip in, great, but the original agreement should determine who pays.

In terms of who was "negligent" - if this was a student, then his instructor was negligent for not adequately checking his gear before he jumped. If he was an experienced jumper, then it's the jumper's job to check any gear he jumps.

[justnalias 0]

Your opinion is noted, thanks billvon. Sometimes rental agreements are a sign-out sheet; often vague and indirect. However, in this case, lets just say there is none.

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If someone else wants to chip in, great, but the original agreement should determine who pays.

huh?...there is more to life than a written agreement. let's just say, for now, that it is not written.

btw...who said it was a "he".

[billvon 3,070]

>Sometimes rental agreements are a sign-out sheet; often
>vague and indirect. However, in this case, lets just say there is none.

Ah. Then it's whatever the rental place's procedures call for. They own the rig.

>btw...who said it was a "he".

No one. I use "he" as an impersonal pronoun to avoid using "he/she him/her" which is awkward.

[kelpdiver 2]

Clearly you're fishing, but I'll play.

But you really left out detail to answer anything but what Bill said re: the contract.

If the new jumper is not to blame, why is it the gear itself and not the packing style that contributed to the hard pull? In which case either the packer or the jumper is to blame, and generally in those cases the jumper takes responsibility.

So to ask again, how was the gear "unacceptable to jump." Jumper made it down, so it wasn't fatally bad.

[AggieDave 6]

Unacceptable how? Unsafe gear choice for the level of the skydiver or unairworthy? If unairworthy, then why wasn't a rigger consulted instead of an instructor? Also, who was the last rigger to pack it and why was it packed if it was unairworthy?

It sounds like the gear choice was unacceptable to jump due to gear choice and the jumper had the gear packed incorrectly (by accident) by a packer who just screwed up. When paying a packer in those regards, you take your chances.

Who pays for the handles? Well, who was it that lost the handles? The jumper, right? Who pays for the repack? Well, who jumped the reserve? The jumper right? What about the freebag? Well, the jumper lost the freebag.

When I have a reserve ride there's a handful of things I try to do. 1. I try not to drop the handles, unless I have a reason to (something else happening that requires my hands). 2. I locate my main and freebag prior to landing. I keep an eye on it and will sometimes go land next to it, if its not a tandem. The last sport ride I had I didn't land next to my main/freebag since I saw another jumper already over where it was going to get it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[justnalias 0]

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Clearly you're fishing...

Clearly you're fishing.

[GravityGirl 0]

>>Instructor comes down, inspects gear, and confirms gear to be unacceptable to jump.<<

Is the instructor a rigger? How is the instructor qualified to label the gear unacceptable to jump.

If the instructor labels the gear unacceptable to jump, why was it not caught on the gear inspection PRIOR to jumping.

Who inspected the gear? The student? The instructor?

In my mind, when I rent or demo gear, it is up to the jumper to evaluate the gear they are about to jump and decide if it is appropriate for them. If they are not qualified to make that decision for themselves, they should not be on solo status, or should have myself or another Instructor decide if the gear is suitable for them to use BEFORE they take it to the air.

What was the cause of the hard pull?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[kelpdiver 2]

sorry I can't give you the answer you seek.

The question would be more interesting if the person was just before A status. But that's not the case here. Licensed jumpers are expected to inspect their gear, get help if they need it.

If the jumper was you, suck it up. At least you got the experience of a cutaway.

[teason 0]

This is, from what I gather, to be a packing error and/or pin check error.

Sounds to me like there was absolutely nothing wrong with the equipment (I'm assuming as you have not stated why the instructor said the gear was unacceptable to jump)

So here's some question:
What caused the hard pull and how is it the fault of the DZ?

Did you pack the gear?

Are you also paying the rigger $50-$75 for the reserve repack?

How much did the rental cost?

And finally, if I borrowed your gear and had a malfunction on a pack job that I did or payed someone for, should I expect you to pay?

So far, nothing in your posts have shown that the DZ/rental shop had anything to do with your Mal.
Thuis is way too vague.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[jlmiracle 7]

First off, a hard pull does not deem a rig unacceptable. It means the jumper needs pack their own pilot chute in such a way they can get it.

Was the first "gear check" from the instructor after the jump?

I've had hard pulls. I know I have a tough time getting leverage so I pack my pilot chute accordingly.

How many jumps on a BOC - if that was that type of deployment?

I think the jumper should pay who lost all the stuff. I was told that from Level 1 - you loose your handle its $25.00. After I got off AFF I was told if you have a cutaway follow your stuff - you lose it you buy it. Its call personal responsiblity.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[bob.dino 1]

Define "unacceptable to jump".

[skybytch 273]

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At this point, however, this is about what seems to be ethically correct rather than legally binding.

imho, "ethically correct" would mean that the jumper is responsible. Once someone is off student status, they assume all responsibility for themselves and the gear they jump - no matter who the gear belongs to, who packed it, or who the jumper is jumping with.

[mjosparky 4]

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At this point, however, this is about what seems to be ethically correct rather than legally binding.

At this point the ethical thing to do would be give all the facts, not just the part that you think will get you the answer you are looking for. If you are unwilling to do this, move on.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[justnalias 0]

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Define "unacceptable to jump".

Instructor pics up rig by the handle on the pilot chute.

(not in reply to bob.dino here) For those who think that a rig is acceptable to jump with a main canopy inaccessible then perhaps you need a lesson in odds.

[dragon2 2]

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Define "unacceptable to jump".

Instructor pics up rig by the handle on the pilot chute.

(not in reply to bob.dino here) For those who think that a rig is acceptable to jump with a main canopy inaccessible then perhaps you need a lesson in odds.

You need a lesson in packing and in checking.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[rehmwa 2]

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imho, "ethically correct" would mean that the jumper is responsible. Once someone is off student status, they assume all responsibility for themselves and the gear they jump - no matter who the gear belongs to, who packed it, or who the jumper is jumping with.

So if you get a rental rig, fully packed, they tell you 'ready to go'. and it turns out to be a Fandango rig (laundry instead of a parachute in the main compartment). Is your opinion the same?

Always best to just own your own gear, pack it yourself, maintain it yourself.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Squeak 17]

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Define "unacceptable to jump".

Instructor pics up rig by the handle on the pilot chute.

(not in reply to bob.dino here) For those who think that a rig is acceptable to jump with a main canopy inaccessible then perhaps you need a lesson in odds.

Who did a pre jump rig check, no one by the looks of this post.
Who packed the rig?
Every time I have had someone else pack my rig the fisrt thing i do before donning it is to check the PC and bridle,/pin. if you cant be bothered to do at least this then suffer the consequences and take responsibilty for your own jumping

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[justnalias 0]

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You need a lesson in packing and in checking.

yah...ok. we are not discussing a situation that involves the creator of this post. pick either party. it matters little. there is my opinion and everyone elses and it seems controversial enough. right now the numbers are very close in both directions.

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Who did a pre jump rig check, no one by the looks of this post. Who packed the rig?

It was a coach jump with video.

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Who packed the rig?

A packer at the dz packed it.

[Squeak 17]

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***. right now the numbers are very close in both directions.

hehe No they're not, most are saying the same thing, "you pay your money you take your chances.

As one of our packers says, you pay for a pack job not an opening

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[justnalias 0]

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hehe No they're not

New Jumper Pays! 18 / 40%
DZ and company! 16 / 36%
DZ and company split cost with new jumper 50 /50! 3 / 7%


19 people say the dz has at least 50% responsibility.

18 people say the new jumper has responsibility.

heeheheheheeee

[DougH 270]

There is a way to gaurantee that a packer will not pack you a hard pull, pack it yourself!!!

In my opinion if you don't check that your pilot chute is cocked, and that you don't have monkey fist, then it is your own damn fault when you have to go silver. The jumper was negligent.

I would be more sympathetic if the jumper had a situation attributed to odds, like a tension knot that led to the chop, but this problem could have been solved on the ground.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Sockpuppet 0]

Feel free to flam away but the student is the one that needs the ass spanking.

Dont get me wrong we ALL need instruction but I think that skydiving has too much of a hangup on the instructor is responsible for the stundent.

If I throw my ass out into the big blue with nowt but some nylon to stop it going splat I sure as hell want to know a) how it works and b) that I believe that it is going to work.

No sturdent should trust the instructor to do the check for them. They should trust then to instruct them in how to do the kit check then supervise, not take the responsibility away from them.

------
Two of the three voices in my head agree with you. It might actually be unanimous but voice three only speaks Welsh.