Royd 0 #1 September 6, 2006 I was browsing the thread in Bonfire about the low altitude exit in Ohio or Iowa. Anyway, my question is, what liscense would you have to practice a 2,000' hop n pop? Also, in and emergency, would you go staight for the reserve? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyinseivLP2 0 #2 September 6, 2006 For USPA it would be a C or D, it doesn't matter where you exit as long as you throw out at 2K. You don't see to many people opening at 2000' these days due to the fast canopies and slow openings that we have now, but 10 years ago it was the norm. What do you mean by emegency? If I have a line over I'm gonna cutaway, if I have a hard pull i'm going for my reserve but then again that's what I'd do on any skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jjrainyday 0 #3 September 6, 2006 I'm assuming by "emergency" you mean an emergency exit from an aircraft at a low altitude. The rule for low emergency exits is that you bail out on your reserve if you are at or below your "decision altitude," the altitude where you decide whether to cut away your main or land it if you're having a malfunction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #4 September 7, 2006 QuoteAnyway, my question is, what liscense would you have to practice a 2,000' hop n pop? As someone said, C or D in the US. But start higher and work your way down to it. Also practice floating and diving exits. In an emergency you will not poise and exit you will just run out like superman. But get over your fear by doing poised exits. Once you feel good about them, them superman a few at that altitude. Then do some poised exits lower, then superman at that altitude. I find it quite funny that people think thay will have no problem doing an emergency exit when they have never even done a low exit before. QuoteAlso, in and emergency, would you go staight for the reserve? JJ said it perfectly, "The rule for low emergency exits is that you bail out on your reserve if you are at or below your "decision altitude," the altitude where you decide whether to cut away your main or land it if you're having a malfunction." It can also depend on how well you know your canopy. I know mine well enough that if I had it I would hop out at 2 no worries. But if I had a new or different canopy at the same altitude, I'd use my reserve."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #5 September 7, 2006 It also depends on whether you have an AAD. The AAD I am jumping with is set for 1,250ft and it reccomends not to use your main within 1,500ft of that so I should use my reserve if at or below 2,750ft. Above that is my personal decision and was determined talking to an instructor."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstime 0 #6 September 7, 2006 I find it quite funny that people think thay will have no problem doing an emergency exit when they have never even done a low exit before. Well said Ron, I will remember that Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #7 September 7, 2006 QuoteI find it quite funny that people think thay will have no problem doing an emergency exit when they have never even done a low exit before. It's one of the reasons I didn't ride the plane back down the day I was offered 2.5K or a landing with the plane. Glad I did it, even though it was below my typical comfort level."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #8 September 7, 2006 QuoteIt also depends on whether you have an AAD. The AAD I am jumping with is set for 1,250ft and it reccomends not to use your main within 1,500ft of that so I should use my reserve if at or below 2,750ft. Above that is my personal decision and was determined talking to an instructor. what AAD is this and where did this recommendation come from? 1500ft is a damn long way down for a HnP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bob.dino 1 #9 September 7, 2006 Probably an FXC 12000J. Quite common on student gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stayhigh 2 #10 September 7, 2006 2000 ft that is f ing low, I'm scared until alti reads 3000ft. That is why I hate seats next to the door.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dragon2 2 #11 September 7, 2006 Quote2000 ft that is f ing low, I'm scared until alti reads 3000ft. That is why I hate seats next to the door. AFF student, huh? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites L.O. 0 #12 September 7, 2006 It makes me a little sad, to see that people worry about getting out of the airplane below 3000. I did my first jump from 3000 and worked my way both up and down from there. Low alt. jumps are a blast and usually cheap to. It has been said, that you need to know the canopy you are jumping. That is true. 2000ftrs are cool. The ground rush, that little bit of tension that you just don't get on a normal jump. I dont like to jump my hot rods(2 FX 89s) below 2500 but if the altitude is in question, it's time for the Fury (220 7-cell F-111). with this canopy I have exited from 600ft..., ..., not from an airplane thats crazy. comfort with your canopy is the key to life in the world of skydiving. If you are not comfy with what you are jumping, it will hold you back with the rest of you skydiving. If you only have one rig, make sure you do some low altitude jumps. You never know when the wings might just fall off. Just kidding. If everyone did some low ones, some high one, and a few inbetweeners, Got very comfortable with what they were jumping the world would be a better place for everyone. Oops, got a little off track with that one. I think you got your answers C, D Lic. and an exit below decision alt would or should be on reserve. I feel very strongly that people should know there canopy back and forth side to side upside down Ect Ect.., If the people involved in the Iowa incident had known there equipment better it may have made for a little different outcome. I have to stop or I will go on forever. I just love this place. I love to express my opinion. Hope it helps.HPDBs, I hate those guys. AFB, charter member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #13 September 7, 2006 QuoteQuote2000 ft that is f ing low, I'm scared until alti reads 3000ft. That is why I hate seats next to the door. AFF student, huh? I prefer the seat by the door, last in and first out. (Not to mention I don't appreciate the plane ride as much as the skydive and if something were to go wrong I like the option of being the first person out the door.)"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #14 September 7, 2006 Quote I find it quite funny that people think thay will have no problem doing an emergency exit when they have never even done a low exit before. Back when I had about 100 jumps, on Safety Day Roger Nelson had a session on breakoff and tracking, and then organized a tracking practice jump for the newbies. He had, however, briefed the pilot to circle back over the DZ and then "fail" an engine and order the plane evacuated "NOW". No-one had any trouble getting out!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #15 September 7, 2006 QuoteBack when I had about 100 jumps, on Safety Day Roger Nelson had a session on breakoff and tracking, and then organized a tracking practice jump for the newbies. He had, however, briefed the pilot to circle back over the DZ and then "fail" an engine and order the plane evacuated "NOW". No-one had any trouble getting out! What altitude? I had the same thing, different DZ. How much you wanna bet that if you pulled that at a DZ different than SDC, or a few choice others, that people would bitch and mention how "dangerous" it was to do?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #16 September 7, 2006 QuoteBut get over your fear by doing poised exits. Once you feel good about them, them superman a few at that altitude. Then do some poised exits lower, then superman at that altitude. How about mixing in a few left-handed reserve handle practice touches with those exits as well? Pulling a ripcord with your left hand is alot different than a BOC or pull out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pincheck 0 #17 September 7, 2006 I think low altitude hop and pops should be a a part off AFF training as already expressed here Aff students seem to have a problem with getting out low where as staticline jumpers are more used to lower exits and don't get as freaked and normally have better exit body positions as well. Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 30 #18 September 7, 2006 QuoteI think low altitude hop and pops should be a a part off AFF training They are... Kinda. But its 1 jump in the lowish alt range (and some place do that at 5k). Its still nothing really. And comming from a student that started at 12k, never opening below 4, 1 jump isnt going to change that fear or perceived danger IMO.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #19 September 7, 2006 Quote They are... Kinda. But its 1 jump in the lowish alt range (and some place do that at 5k). Officially it's 3.5 on the A card, but I've heard from a lot of people who never had to do them lower than 5K or higher. All of this discussion makes me appreciate life in the PNW a little more - many days h&ps are the best thing we're gonna get and it's nice to keep our knees in the breeze. I'd have to look at my logbook but I'd guess at least 15% of my jumps are hop & pops either because of weather or by choice. Lately I've been doing a fun exercise on the ride to altitude since our Porter's got such a great view. I look out the window and first try to guess my altitude, then verify with a glance at my altimeter and say "if I got out now, what would I do?" Scan the landscape for good and bad landing options (it's especially fun when we're over a big, hilly, tree-covered area), and try to figure out if I was forced out of the plane, could I get to the good ones with the available altitude? At 2 grand we're generally still over farmland, but by 5 or 6 K it's over the hills and trees and the exercise becomes a bit more interesting."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kkeenan 14 #20 September 7, 2006 QuoteHe had, however, briefed the pilot to circle back over the DZ and then "fail" an engine and order the plane evacuated "NOW". I seem to recall that there was a bit of controversy surrounding that particular exercise (I know, Roger and controversy? No way !) Rumors were Roger pulled the engine without telling anyone, many freaked out and thought they were going to die, etc. Anyone have details ?? Kevin_____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #21 September 7, 2006 QuoteHow about mixing in a few left-handed reserve handle practice touches with those exits as well? I think that is a great idea....sometimes on breakoff when I stop tracking I touch the reserve handle."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites winsor 236 #22 September 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteHe had, however, briefed the pilot to circle back over the DZ and then "fail" an engine and order the plane evacuated "NOW". I seem to recall that there was a bit of controversy surrounding that particular exercise (I know, Roger and controversy? No way !) Rumors were Roger pulled the engine without telling anyone, many freaked out and thought they were going to die, etc. Anyone have details ?? I was on an airplane on which Roger arranged to have an engine "fail," but it was a non-event. Kevin Gibson, OTOH, once reached into the cockpit and killed power on BOTH engines at about 12 grand. Somehow he managed to avoid criminal charges - but he was coldcocked after landing by one of the unhappy people on the load. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kkeenan 14 #23 September 7, 2006 QuoteKevin Gibson, OTOH, once reached into the cockpit and killed power on BOTH engines at about 12 grand. OK. That's the one I was thinking of. I had the two stories confused. That Kevin Gibson's a real joker. Thanks, Winsor._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pincheck 0 #24 September 7, 2006 well i guest there is a upside coming from a dz that has low cloud base during winter where you get plenty of practice leaving low. Perhaps some follow up to the standard hop& pop training for Aff students then. I've also noticed Crew jumpers have the least worry about getting out low, guess its just their practice at dumping and body position out the door. Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildfan75 1 #25 September 7, 2006 The mock emergency exit thing is kind of a good idea, but maybe they could annouce it before take off so no one gets hits later. Pilot could tell everyone that they are going to do an emergency exit but don't tell any of the jumpers what altitude they will be getting out at...could be 2000', could be 5000', could be 10000'. Would keep everyone on their toes for that jump. 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NWFlyer 2 #7 September 7, 2006 QuoteI find it quite funny that people think thay will have no problem doing an emergency exit when they have never even done a low exit before. It's one of the reasons I didn't ride the plane back down the day I was offered 2.5K or a landing with the plane. Glad I did it, even though it was below my typical comfort level."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #8 September 7, 2006 QuoteIt also depends on whether you have an AAD. The AAD I am jumping with is set for 1,250ft and it reccomends not to use your main within 1,500ft of that so I should use my reserve if at or below 2,750ft. Above that is my personal decision and was determined talking to an instructor. what AAD is this and where did this recommendation come from? 1500ft is a damn long way down for a HnP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 1 #9 September 7, 2006 Probably an FXC 12000J. Quite common on student gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #10 September 7, 2006 2000 ft that is f ing low, I'm scared until alti reads 3000ft. That is why I hate seats next to the door.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #11 September 7, 2006 Quote2000 ft that is f ing low, I'm scared until alti reads 3000ft. That is why I hate seats next to the door. AFF student, huh? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
L.O. 0 #12 September 7, 2006 It makes me a little sad, to see that people worry about getting out of the airplane below 3000. I did my first jump from 3000 and worked my way both up and down from there. Low alt. jumps are a blast and usually cheap to. It has been said, that you need to know the canopy you are jumping. That is true. 2000ftrs are cool. The ground rush, that little bit of tension that you just don't get on a normal jump. I dont like to jump my hot rods(2 FX 89s) below 2500 but if the altitude is in question, it's time for the Fury (220 7-cell F-111). with this canopy I have exited from 600ft..., ..., not from an airplane thats crazy. comfort with your canopy is the key to life in the world of skydiving. If you are not comfy with what you are jumping, it will hold you back with the rest of you skydiving. If you only have one rig, make sure you do some low altitude jumps. You never know when the wings might just fall off. Just kidding. If everyone did some low ones, some high one, and a few inbetweeners, Got very comfortable with what they were jumping the world would be a better place for everyone. Oops, got a little off track with that one. I think you got your answers C, D Lic. and an exit below decision alt would or should be on reserve. I feel very strongly that people should know there canopy back and forth side to side upside down Ect Ect.., If the people involved in the Iowa incident had known there equipment better it may have made for a little different outcome. I have to stop or I will go on forever. I just love this place. I love to express my opinion. Hope it helps.HPDBs, I hate those guys. AFB, charter member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #13 September 7, 2006 QuoteQuote2000 ft that is f ing low, I'm scared until alti reads 3000ft. That is why I hate seats next to the door. AFF student, huh? I prefer the seat by the door, last in and first out. (Not to mention I don't appreciate the plane ride as much as the skydive and if something were to go wrong I like the option of being the first person out the door.)"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #14 September 7, 2006 Quote I find it quite funny that people think thay will have no problem doing an emergency exit when they have never even done a low exit before. Back when I had about 100 jumps, on Safety Day Roger Nelson had a session on breakoff and tracking, and then organized a tracking practice jump for the newbies. He had, however, briefed the pilot to circle back over the DZ and then "fail" an engine and order the plane evacuated "NOW". No-one had any trouble getting out!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #15 September 7, 2006 QuoteBack when I had about 100 jumps, on Safety Day Roger Nelson had a session on breakoff and tracking, and then organized a tracking practice jump for the newbies. He had, however, briefed the pilot to circle back over the DZ and then "fail" an engine and order the plane evacuated "NOW". No-one had any trouble getting out! What altitude? I had the same thing, different DZ. How much you wanna bet that if you pulled that at a DZ different than SDC, or a few choice others, that people would bitch and mention how "dangerous" it was to do?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #16 September 7, 2006 QuoteBut get over your fear by doing poised exits. Once you feel good about them, them superman a few at that altitude. Then do some poised exits lower, then superman at that altitude. How about mixing in a few left-handed reserve handle practice touches with those exits as well? Pulling a ripcord with your left hand is alot different than a BOC or pull out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pincheck 0 #17 September 7, 2006 I think low altitude hop and pops should be a a part off AFF training as already expressed here Aff students seem to have a problem with getting out low where as staticline jumpers are more used to lower exits and don't get as freaked and normally have better exit body positions as well. Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #18 September 7, 2006 QuoteI think low altitude hop and pops should be a a part off AFF training They are... Kinda. But its 1 jump in the lowish alt range (and some place do that at 5k). Its still nothing really. And comming from a student that started at 12k, never opening below 4, 1 jump isnt going to change that fear or perceived danger IMO.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #19 September 7, 2006 Quote They are... Kinda. But its 1 jump in the lowish alt range (and some place do that at 5k). Officially it's 3.5 on the A card, but I've heard from a lot of people who never had to do them lower than 5K or higher. All of this discussion makes me appreciate life in the PNW a little more - many days h&ps are the best thing we're gonna get and it's nice to keep our knees in the breeze. I'd have to look at my logbook but I'd guess at least 15% of my jumps are hop & pops either because of weather or by choice. Lately I've been doing a fun exercise on the ride to altitude since our Porter's got such a great view. I look out the window and first try to guess my altitude, then verify with a glance at my altimeter and say "if I got out now, what would I do?" Scan the landscape for good and bad landing options (it's especially fun when we're over a big, hilly, tree-covered area), and try to figure out if I was forced out of the plane, could I get to the good ones with the available altitude? At 2 grand we're generally still over farmland, but by 5 or 6 K it's over the hills and trees and the exercise becomes a bit more interesting."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 14 #20 September 7, 2006 QuoteHe had, however, briefed the pilot to circle back over the DZ and then "fail" an engine and order the plane evacuated "NOW". I seem to recall that there was a bit of controversy surrounding that particular exercise (I know, Roger and controversy? No way !) Rumors were Roger pulled the engine without telling anyone, many freaked out and thought they were going to die, etc. Anyone have details ?? Kevin_____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #21 September 7, 2006 QuoteHow about mixing in a few left-handed reserve handle practice touches with those exits as well? I think that is a great idea....sometimes on breakoff when I stop tracking I touch the reserve handle."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #22 September 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteHe had, however, briefed the pilot to circle back over the DZ and then "fail" an engine and order the plane evacuated "NOW". I seem to recall that there was a bit of controversy surrounding that particular exercise (I know, Roger and controversy? No way !) Rumors were Roger pulled the engine without telling anyone, many freaked out and thought they were going to die, etc. Anyone have details ?? I was on an airplane on which Roger arranged to have an engine "fail," but it was a non-event. Kevin Gibson, OTOH, once reached into the cockpit and killed power on BOTH engines at about 12 grand. Somehow he managed to avoid criminal charges - but he was coldcocked after landing by one of the unhappy people on the load. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 14 #23 September 7, 2006 QuoteKevin Gibson, OTOH, once reached into the cockpit and killed power on BOTH engines at about 12 grand. OK. That's the one I was thinking of. I had the two stories confused. That Kevin Gibson's a real joker. Thanks, Winsor._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pincheck 0 #24 September 7, 2006 well i guest there is a upside coming from a dz that has low cloud base during winter where you get plenty of practice leaving low. Perhaps some follow up to the standard hop& pop training for Aff students then. I've also noticed Crew jumpers have the least worry about getting out low, guess its just their practice at dumping and body position out the door. Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #25 September 7, 2006 The mock emergency exit thing is kind of a good idea, but maybe they could annouce it before take off so no one gets hits later. Pilot could tell everyone that they are going to do an emergency exit but don't tell any of the jumpers what altitude they will be getting out at...could be 2000', could be 5000', could be 10000'. Would keep everyone on their toes for that jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
