rehmwa 2 #26 August 8, 2006 QuoteThe waiver did it's job! And it shows why the waivers hold up in court - you don't need to skydive. Good on the staff for enforcing the rules. Good on the students for saying, "It ain't worth it." This makes me feel good. Unless you make the automatic and paranoid assuption (which I think some are making) that the customers were 'casing' the joint with the plan to sue. Then they read the waiver, which was pretty tight; and they saw how poor everybody was, and then ditch on the scam as too much trouble. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #27 August 8, 2006 Quote Unless you make the automatic and paranoid assuption (which I think some are making) that the customers were 'casing' the joint with the plan to sue. It's a dedicated scamster that is looking to get hurt skydiving so they can make money in litigation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #28 August 8, 2006 QuoteHave any of you experienced this before? This past week-end we had 2 people come in to do a tandem. After scrutinizing the waiver they asked that if anything happens to them they can't sue. The answer they got was yes they could, but usually the waiver holds out. On that level they said they didn't want to jump if the couldn't sue. Its a first for me in 12 years of jumping. Has anyone else experienced this. We asked manifest about the waiver & the option of paying the extra $500 to retain the right to sue, (not just for packages). We were told if they wanted to spend the xtra $$$ for the right to sue they were told to take a hikeDamn Waiver Had to read the whole thing to insure we didn't initial that paragraph. FWIW we initialed every other paragraph R.I.P. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #29 August 9, 2006 QuoteThe waiver did it's job! And it shows why the waivers hold up in court - you don't need to skydive. Good on the staff for enforcing the rules. Good on the students for saying, "It ain't worth it." This makes me feel good. Ditto. I don't think they're idiots. They just sound like a couple of people who actually read the waiver and decided it wasn't acceptable to them. The people I am more concerned about are those who simply sign their life away without reading what they're signing and/or without understanding how dangerous even a tandem is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #30 August 9, 2006 Quote The people I am more concerned about are those who simply sign their life away without reading what they're signing and/or without understanding how dangerous even a tandem is. That's what I do...but I solo jump. No, who of us sport jumpers carefully scrutinize the waiver when visiting other DZs? I supppose I should start a different topic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #31 August 9, 2006 Quote That's what I do...but I solo jump. No, who of us sport jumpers carefully scrutinize the waiver when visiting other DZs? I supppose I should start a different topic. you can read waivers like that 'guess the song' game. I can guess the purpose of this section in 13 words. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #32 August 9, 2006 Here'ssome insight into why things like this happen. In my 12 years of instructing, I've noticed that quite often if you give someone an excuse not to jump, the terrified types jump at it. They would love to go back and tell thier friends "I would have jumped but ....(fill in excuse here). These are the friends that tell you they would've jumped but it was too expensive. (been down that road with customers, it's not the money) These are the jumpers who scream the loudest when the weather craps out. (if the weather suddenly clears, they are always the most terrified in the plane and sometime back out on jump run) These are the ones who can only jump on the days you are closed. (One guy wanted to book on our only day off. When I told him I'd make an exeption, all of a sudden he had to talk to his friend before booking and he never called back!) Skydiving is very scary and intimidating sport. To jump from a plane, you must confront your fear. For some, if they can avoid putting themselves to the test and save face by pointing the blame elsewhere, they'll do it. We've had beautiful weather this year but few come out to take advantage of thier free second jump (FJC promotion). We had our first bad weather weekend in two months and suddenly everyone wanted to come out that day to use their jump ticket! We took 20 calls! The previous weekend when it was beautiful ... 2 calls and they never showed up! Not everyone assess risk the same. To a regular jumper, the risk is worth the reward. Dealing with the others makes me want to pull my hair out! As polonius said, "above all else, to thyne own self be true" I get really sick of being the cowardly excuse. "I would skydive, but those guys are a bunch of jerks. They should've known it was gonna start raining!" I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #33 August 9, 2006 I have this (below) in my waiver. I think it would scare the shit out of me if someone actually opted to pay the additional $500 per jump! Never had anyone opt to pay the $500, and not yet had anyone walk away because of the Participation Agreement (waiver) 2. RELEASE OF LIABILITY. 3. AGREEMENT NOT TO SUE AND WAIVER OF JURY TRIAL. 4. INDEMNITY AGAINST THIRD PARTY CLAIMS. 5. OPTIONAL WAIVER OF CONTRACT DEFENSES. I understand that this Agreement is a contract pursuant to which I have released any and all claims against the Releasees arising in any way from my participation in or my attending the activities covered by this agreement, INCLUDING ANY CLAIMS CAUSED BY NEGLIGENCE OR ARISING FROM ANY OTHER CAUSE, ACTIVE OR PASSIVE, DIRECT OR INDIRECT, OF THE RELEASEES. I acknowledge that I have the option to purchase a waiver of the provisions contained in Paragraphs 2, 3, and 4 of this Agreement at an additional cost of Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00). Such waiver does not constitute a contract of insurance. Such waiver would waive the matters set forth in Paragraphs 2, 3, and 4 above, allowing me to retain my normal legal rights that I am otherwise giving up. (________) Please initial when read. I choose to: (initial one) A. PURCHASE (________) the waiver. (Pay $500.00, otherwise...) B. NOT PURCHASE (__ _____) the waiver. (Do not pay $500.00)Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #34 August 9, 2006 I forget - does Lodi not have a tandem waiver? Or is there a tandem waiver but none for up-jumpers at Lodi? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StevieBoy 0 #35 August 9, 2006 QuoteQuote The people I am more concerned about are those who simply sign their life away without reading what they're signing and/or without understanding how dangerous even a tandem is. Thats me then & most skydivers I know if you dont sign you dont jump, most skydivers dont know how dangerous a tandem jump is, me included it deosn't mttaer waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites catfishhunter 2 #36 August 10, 2006 From what I saw they do the Tandem Waiver but as for funjumpers.. I didn't sign one. Bill didn't even ask to see my log book. He said $15 and your on the next load. I said I need to rent as I was just out visiting my daughter he said ok then $35..then said by the way how many jumps you got (If I didn't ask for a rental rig I don't think he would have asked me) I said 90sumpthing (was awhile ago) He said oh? Where do you jump and I said Skydive Ogden. He said oh Brians Place? Once I knew Brian and Suzanna life was good and I was on the next load.. That was all it took.. Oh I did ask him about a waiver he said we don't do that here we just jump :) MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zing 2 #37 August 10, 2006 Bill Dause said. ... "he said we don't do that here we just jump." You just gotta love the guy for that attitude! I've had a great time at Dause's places in Pope Valley and Lodi.Zing Lurks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #38 August 10, 2006 QuoteBill Dause said. ... "he said we don't do that here we just jump." You just gotta love the guy for that attitude! I've had a great time at Dause's places in Pope Valley and Lodi. I would've loved to jump in Pope Valley....sigh.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lauraliscious 0 #39 August 10, 2006 I'm the child of a lawyer. I read the whole waiver the first time I made a tandem. I wasn't really comfortable signing my rights away, but I wanted to jump enough that I did it. My mom came out and was thisclose to making a tandem. Then she, too, read the waiver. And watched the Bill Booth video. I don't think it was as much the signing away her right to sue as it was both the waiver and Bill Booth scared her. So she didn't jump. I do think it's important to read what you're signing and make an informed decision as to whether or not those terms are agreeable to you. Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #40 August 10, 2006 QuoteI don't think it was as much the signing away her right to sue as it was both the waiver and Bill Booth scared her. So she didn't jump. Obviously, she must be a litigation-hungry sue jockey looking to get rich off of unfortuneate accidents and personal injury. Or, 'stupid', for not just assuming there would be a waiver. (Or so I'm learning from so many other posts here) {Go for your mom for making "her' decision after getting her facts - I think she's smart} ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChangoLanzao 0 #41 August 10, 2006 QuoteQuoteDon't you find them kinda stupid for wanting to go skydiving and thinking there would be no waiver or a waiver that would put all liability on the parties involved? It's easy bash someone who decides not to jump. It's nice ego self-stroking. Let me ask you the question you asked me in a different way. Do you find someone that reads a contract, asks intelligent questions about the contract and then makes an informed choice (one way or the other) based on their clarified insight of the contract to be "stupid"? Well, they were too stupid to understand that the real purpose of the contract is to weed out stupid, litigous, slimeballs Quote or: Don't you find people that just assume a sport's waiver's content are ignorant when they can show up and read it in person without having to GUESS? Smart people don't read those things, they just initial everywhere and sign because that's what they're for. Quote I think those particular customers are great - they showed up, got the facts first, and then made the choice right for them. The only thing they could have done better was to ask about the waiver on the phone ahead of time - which they may have done and still decided to read it first and ask question rather than skip the event. I have issues only with those that sign the waiver and then sue afterword. I can't decide if I have more disdain for "those that don't read it, sign it and sue" vs "those that do read it, sign it and sue." I don't feel disdain for any of them. They can still sue, but at least by signing it, they are the kind of people who are willing to assume some responsibility for their actions and decisions. Edit: After reading the rest of the thread , I have to add that my comments do no include those who are using the waiver as a good excuse not to jump because they are really scared, or don't really feel like jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kryos 0 #42 August 11, 2006 Quote In many states, i.e., California, this is not the case. An adhesion contract is one for which there is no choice for an adherent to the contract to sign, or for which there was no understanding of the terms of the contract, which would make the contract unenforceable. Okay, then what do you call the typical tandem waiver? Is that not a contract the adherent has no choice but to sign if he wants to jump? I agree ... many states will honor the waiver simply because unlike the subject of many adhesion contracts, skydiving is not a product or service that the adherent MUST have. If he signs the contract and gives up his right to sue, he is seen as doing that willingly ... unlike your hypothetical gunshot victim who desperately needs medical treatment and thus signs the contract to ease his physical pain and discomfort. However, still ... most dz's will add that other clause to their tandem waivers ... regarding the $500 payment in order to keep your right to sue. Of course, it's actually a load of crap since anyone opting to retain that right by paying the $500 probably wouldn't be allowed to jump anyway. Blue skies ... --rita Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sclosoma 0 #43 August 11, 2006 There is a waiver at Lodi, its on the back of your ticket. -Edit for spelling"Don't mistake common stupidity for common sense" -Bill Dause Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #44 August 11, 2006 QuoteQuote In many states, i.e., California, this is not the case. An adhesion contract is one for which there is no choice for an adherent to the contract to sign, or for which there was no understanding of the terms of the contract, which would make the contract unenforceable. Okay, then what do you call the typical tandem waiver? Is that not a contract the adherent has no choice but to sign if he wants to jump? Not jumping is always a valid choice. Not getting medical attention is not a valid choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflyit 0 #45 August 12, 2006 Hey man, This is unrelated but I have a question for you. I can't remember where I've heard it, it might have even just been some guy saying it, but anyways...after so many jumps, does the skydive still make you feel anything? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slug 1 #46 August 12, 2006 QuoteHave any of you experienced this before? This past week-end we had 2 people come in to do a tandem. After scrutinizing the waiver they asked that if anything happens to them they can't sue. The answer they got was yes they could, but usually the waiver holds out. On that level they said they didn't want to jump if the couldn't sue. Its a first for me in 12 years of jumping. Has anyone else experienced this. Now that all DZ's have websights with all the preaty pictures, USPA official seal of approval, nice looking airplanes and pics of staff with list of all their experience why doesn't the websight include a copy of the waiver that the package will be required to sign before they get to jump? Marketing? or something else? experienced jumpers know the real deal, sign the silly waiver and jump. a package is going to drive x miles get pysched up to jump and then get hit with the waiver SURPRISE!!! IMO put a copy of the waiver on the DZ's websight. The DZ has nothing to hide, just maybe a little business to lose that they really don't need anyway. Truth in advertisingR.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #47 August 12, 2006 The Ranch in New York does have their waiver online as well as the tandem waiver video. You can download it and fill it out before you arrive so you don't have to sit in a classroom doing that.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slug 1 #48 August 12, 2006 QuoteThe Ranch in New York does have their waiver online as well as the tandem waiver video. You can download it and fill it out before you arrive so you don't have to sit in a classroom doing that. Thanks Phree. We don't cruise all the DZ websights to get our jollies so this was news to us. Sounds like the Ranch my be ahead of the game and setting a example for other Dz's to follow. time will tell R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpindy 0 #49 August 13, 2006 At Skydive San Marcos we have seen this behavior several times. 90% of the time it was a law student from U of Texas and they knew just enough about the law to make them dangerous. we just told them SEE YA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyberdyber 0 #50 August 14, 2006 Posting it OK. But accepting a waiver printed and signed at home? That actually has potential to be a really dumb idea. If your staff doesn't have the waiver memorized and checks every word, someone could make small changes rendering it useless. http://www.skydiveatlanta.com http://www.musiccityskydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
catfishhunter 2 #36 August 10, 2006 From what I saw they do the Tandem Waiver but as for funjumpers.. I didn't sign one. Bill didn't even ask to see my log book. He said $15 and your on the next load. I said I need to rent as I was just out visiting my daughter he said ok then $35..then said by the way how many jumps you got (If I didn't ask for a rental rig I don't think he would have asked me) I said 90sumpthing (was awhile ago) He said oh? Where do you jump and I said Skydive Ogden. He said oh Brians Place? Once I knew Brian and Suzanna life was good and I was on the next load.. That was all it took.. Oh I did ask him about a waiver he said we don't do that here we just jump :) MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zing 2 #37 August 10, 2006 Bill Dause said. ... "he said we don't do that here we just jump." You just gotta love the guy for that attitude! I've had a great time at Dause's places in Pope Valley and Lodi.Zing Lurks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #38 August 10, 2006 QuoteBill Dause said. ... "he said we don't do that here we just jump." You just gotta love the guy for that attitude! I've had a great time at Dause's places in Pope Valley and Lodi. I would've loved to jump in Pope Valley....sigh.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lauraliscious 0 #39 August 10, 2006 I'm the child of a lawyer. I read the whole waiver the first time I made a tandem. I wasn't really comfortable signing my rights away, but I wanted to jump enough that I did it. My mom came out and was thisclose to making a tandem. Then she, too, read the waiver. And watched the Bill Booth video. I don't think it was as much the signing away her right to sue as it was both the waiver and Bill Booth scared her. So she didn't jump. I do think it's important to read what you're signing and make an informed decision as to whether or not those terms are agreeable to you. Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #40 August 10, 2006 QuoteI don't think it was as much the signing away her right to sue as it was both the waiver and Bill Booth scared her. So she didn't jump. Obviously, she must be a litigation-hungry sue jockey looking to get rich off of unfortuneate accidents and personal injury. Or, 'stupid', for not just assuming there would be a waiver. (Or so I'm learning from so many other posts here) {Go for your mom for making "her' decision after getting her facts - I think she's smart} ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #41 August 10, 2006 QuoteQuoteDon't you find them kinda stupid for wanting to go skydiving and thinking there would be no waiver or a waiver that would put all liability on the parties involved? It's easy bash someone who decides not to jump. It's nice ego self-stroking. Let me ask you the question you asked me in a different way. Do you find someone that reads a contract, asks intelligent questions about the contract and then makes an informed choice (one way or the other) based on their clarified insight of the contract to be "stupid"? Well, they were too stupid to understand that the real purpose of the contract is to weed out stupid, litigous, slimeballs Quote or: Don't you find people that just assume a sport's waiver's content are ignorant when they can show up and read it in person without having to GUESS? Smart people don't read those things, they just initial everywhere and sign because that's what they're for. Quote I think those particular customers are great - they showed up, got the facts first, and then made the choice right for them. The only thing they could have done better was to ask about the waiver on the phone ahead of time - which they may have done and still decided to read it first and ask question rather than skip the event. I have issues only with those that sign the waiver and then sue afterword. I can't decide if I have more disdain for "those that don't read it, sign it and sue" vs "those that do read it, sign it and sue." I don't feel disdain for any of them. They can still sue, but at least by signing it, they are the kind of people who are willing to assume some responsibility for their actions and decisions. Edit: After reading the rest of the thread , I have to add that my comments do no include those who are using the waiver as a good excuse not to jump because they are really scared, or don't really feel like jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kryos 0 #42 August 11, 2006 Quote In many states, i.e., California, this is not the case. An adhesion contract is one for which there is no choice for an adherent to the contract to sign, or for which there was no understanding of the terms of the contract, which would make the contract unenforceable. Okay, then what do you call the typical tandem waiver? Is that not a contract the adherent has no choice but to sign if he wants to jump? I agree ... many states will honor the waiver simply because unlike the subject of many adhesion contracts, skydiving is not a product or service that the adherent MUST have. If he signs the contract and gives up his right to sue, he is seen as doing that willingly ... unlike your hypothetical gunshot victim who desperately needs medical treatment and thus signs the contract to ease his physical pain and discomfort. However, still ... most dz's will add that other clause to their tandem waivers ... regarding the $500 payment in order to keep your right to sue. Of course, it's actually a load of crap since anyone opting to retain that right by paying the $500 probably wouldn't be allowed to jump anyway. Blue skies ... --rita Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sclosoma 0 #43 August 11, 2006 There is a waiver at Lodi, its on the back of your ticket. -Edit for spelling"Don't mistake common stupidity for common sense" -Bill Dause Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #44 August 11, 2006 QuoteQuote In many states, i.e., California, this is not the case. An adhesion contract is one for which there is no choice for an adherent to the contract to sign, or for which there was no understanding of the terms of the contract, which would make the contract unenforceable. Okay, then what do you call the typical tandem waiver? Is that not a contract the adherent has no choice but to sign if he wants to jump? Not jumping is always a valid choice. Not getting medical attention is not a valid choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyit 0 #45 August 12, 2006 Hey man, This is unrelated but I have a question for you. I can't remember where I've heard it, it might have even just been some guy saying it, but anyways...after so many jumps, does the skydive still make you feel anything? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #46 August 12, 2006 QuoteHave any of you experienced this before? This past week-end we had 2 people come in to do a tandem. After scrutinizing the waiver they asked that if anything happens to them they can't sue. The answer they got was yes they could, but usually the waiver holds out. On that level they said they didn't want to jump if the couldn't sue. Its a first for me in 12 years of jumping. Has anyone else experienced this. Now that all DZ's have websights with all the preaty pictures, USPA official seal of approval, nice looking airplanes and pics of staff with list of all their experience why doesn't the websight include a copy of the waiver that the package will be required to sign before they get to jump? Marketing? or something else? experienced jumpers know the real deal, sign the silly waiver and jump. a package is going to drive x miles get pysched up to jump and then get hit with the waiver SURPRISE!!! IMO put a copy of the waiver on the DZ's websight. The DZ has nothing to hide, just maybe a little business to lose that they really don't need anyway. Truth in advertisingR.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #47 August 12, 2006 The Ranch in New York does have their waiver online as well as the tandem waiver video. You can download it and fill it out before you arrive so you don't have to sit in a classroom doing that.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #48 August 12, 2006 QuoteThe Ranch in New York does have their waiver online as well as the tandem waiver video. You can download it and fill it out before you arrive so you don't have to sit in a classroom doing that. Thanks Phree. We don't cruise all the DZ websights to get our jollies so this was news to us. Sounds like the Ranch my be ahead of the game and setting a example for other Dz's to follow. time will tell R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpindy 0 #49 August 13, 2006 At Skydive San Marcos we have seen this behavior several times. 90% of the time it was a law student from U of Texas and they knew just enough about the law to make them dangerous. we just told them SEE YA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyberdyber 0 #50 August 14, 2006 Posting it OK. But accepting a waiver printed and signed at home? That actually has potential to be a really dumb idea. If your staff doesn't have the waiver memorized and checks every word, someone could make small changes rendering it useless. http://www.skydiveatlanta.com http://www.musiccityskydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
