WFFC safety

[notaccountable 0]

do me a favor next year STAY HOME IN THE UK!
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With all due respect I would like to second that. How many people did Bigway counsel on safety or coach on being safer at this venue. Oh wait it must not be his job, it is and always will be someone ELSES job. I guess policing ourselves means "do nothing" when something bad happens gripe and complain because no one did anything, but when one person "does" something we throw the book at him because he didn't do it the way we think he should have. You have my respect Mr. Peek.

[Deuce 1]

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>Should they be letting a person with 60 jumps try and land amongst powrlines and 8 foot corn?

Over here we ask "should a jumper with 60 jumps try to do a balloon jump?" There's a lot more "you should probably . . ." than "someone should make you . . ." at US DZ's I guess. Different culture, perhaps.

Oh, good God, Bill, we and the UK folks are SO different!

I was packing up to leave Eloy one Christmas after agreeing to stay a day late to photograph a group of UK friends out of the balloon and when we got down and I was getting them digitial copies of their prints, they saw my pistol sitting there and just froze solid. I handed it to them (both UK military officers) and they just couldn't believe it. Especially the loaded gun part. I don't mean to get into politics, but when a person from a gun state tells a UK'r "Of course there's a gun in the glove compartment" some sort of fuse blows.

I think it's wired to the safety Nazi thing.

It's the US. "That's the Grand Canyon. It's pretty. Don't fall in."

[Buried 0]

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Maybe instead of myself looking at it that the WFFC is dangerous, maybe i should think some of the jumpers are irresponsibl;e when they are in charge of themselves

yup that is basically it or they do not know better. generally we in the US we like to govern ourselves (with the help of peers) at least partly in this sport other than leaving it up to an organization (BPA) to do it for us.

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[sunshine 2]

I agree with the peeps that told you not to go to WFFC anymore, come see us at SDC for summefest again. We love having you around.

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meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[bigway 4]

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do me a favor next year STAY HOME IN THE UK!
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With all due respect I would like to second that. How many people did Bigway counsel on safety or coach on being safer at this venue. Oh wait it must not be his job, it is and always will be someone ELSES job. I guess policing ourselves means "do nothing" when something bad happens gripe and complain because no one did anything, but when one person "does" something we throw the book at him because he didn't do it the way we think he should have. You have my respect Mr. Peek.

To answer your question i had my days full with looking after, coaching and briefing a very low number jumper that came over with my crew. I was helping him with tracking, and awerness as i noticed he was always opening next to people and tracking along with others.

At the same time, he was also coming along on jumps he should not have been on but the peer preassure from the rest of my crew was not letting me stop him from coming.

I imagine seeing that is your first post you know me and want to remain anonomoys.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[bigway 4]

Thank you sunny, i am having a fantastic time here and have made a ton of friends that are trying to make me stay. Shaun just bought a van and i have not been bothered to check what date my ticket is yet

Have someone in the uk i want to go home for but other than that Skydive Chicago has been the most welcoming time of my life.


P.S. it is so easy to work people up on these forums.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[bob.dino 1]

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I was on a skyvan load and they were putting students out that were on radio and student gear pulling at 4500 feet who were at the same time on 8-ways before big freefly groups who were pulling at 3000 feet.

Could you clarify that please? Are you saying that students got put out before freefliers? Most of the time (jumprun into wind, winds at opening and height same direction) that's correct.

[agent_lead 0]

tell shauwn lead says wut up..

gooood times

gooood times!!!

--------------------------------------------
www.facebook.com/agentlead

[notaccountable 0]

I have no idea who you are, nor do I care. I'm not attacking you. I do respect the fact that you evidently you love skydiving and traveled so far to join us in the US whether it be the WFFC or Summerfest. I'm providing information. I do commend you on your efforts to train up your younger jumpers. That is a breath of fresh air. If only the leader of your group was a concerned about the younger jumpers safety, then maybe they might listen to them. I do sincerely commend you for your efforts. I would recommend more leadership skills to promote others to follow your way of being safety conscience. It would be a good leader to have around.

You might have tried to tell your buddy going to the pitts not to go. Just a point of education. If you jump a non-tethered balloon you will most likely NOT land at the airport where you departed from. If you jump the jet you may not land on the airport you departed from. If you jump a 182 you may not land at the airport you departed from. You chose to jump the aircraft which reduced your odds of landing at the airport to nearly 0. Not much I can say about that.

People have made rules, it's called the USPA and the FAA. There were several safety people there, and going out to talk to people who chose to violate the rules. If you have ideas I'm sure it wouldn't fall on deaf ears, but it seems you can't keep your own crew in order, it's a collective effort from ALL of us to keep this sport as safe as it can be. Again, with all due respect.

(DYING TO LEARN OR LEARNING TO DIE, JUST A THOUGHT)

[Ron 10]

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At the same time, he was also coming along on jumps he should not have been on but the peer preassure from the rest of my crew was not letting me stop him from coming.

Worth repeating. Now a question...would this have happend at your home DZ?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[notaccountable 0]

would this have happend at your home DZ?
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I'm actually sick and tired of hearing that statement from you. Evidently you must just at the only dropzone in the US that is error proof... Oh wait a minute you jump at a dropzone that has had 4 deaths in the past five years. You've had a guy jumping a canopy for a very long time that pretty much everyone around has talk with hopes of him saving his own life and stop trying to swoop. Everyone around said it's only a matter of time, yet he was still jumping this canopy. I could go on and on. So the answer is 'YES' it CAN happen at your own dropzone.

It appears you scroll through threads looking for a WFFC bashing moment. I've reviewed your reply's and threads. It's sad. I hope you find someone that will bring you happiness, I sincerely mean that. No one should have to go through life is such pain. With all due respect

(DYING TO LEARN OR LEARNING TO DIE, JUST A THOUGHT)

[Ron 10]

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I'm actually sick and tired of hearing that statement from you.

Hey troll!!! here is a neat trick DON'T READ THEM!!

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I hope you find someone that will bring you happiness

I did...Tell your mom I said hi!

And as for your other stuff....Not even close. I have seen death. I do everything I can to prevent it. If that means saying what I think about your "sacred place" well then thats just the way it goes.

If you don't know that...Well then you clearly have either a reading problem...Or you just are as dense as you are a troll

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[notaccountable 0]

My place, wrong. My mother is dead. I'm stating my views just as you are. People are free to read them just as they are free to research your to confirm what is being said as fact. I know others have realized a long time ago that they are dealing with a very bitter person, and have just gotten used to it. I was only trying in vein for you to see that. I believe never too old to grow. That's just me. By the way I'm assuming that you calling me a "troll" is supposed to be insulting. I'm sorry I haven't heard that so I haven't been, but I'll work on it just for you. I see how important it is to you.

(DYING TO LEARN OR LEARNING TO DIE, JUST A THOUGHT)

[normiss 798]

I grew up in the south...I don't go anywhere without a gun...damn does that freak some peeps out...specially them furiners like you said!!!


Welcome to America folks!

[mjosparky 4]

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do me a favor next year STAY HOME IN THE UK!
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With all due respect I would like to second that. How many people did Bigway counsel on safety or coach on being safer at this venue. Oh wait it must not be his job, it is and always will be someone ELSES job. I guess policing ourselves means "do nothing" when something bad happens gripe and complain because no one did anything, but when one person "does" something we throw the book at him because he didn't do it the way we think he should have. You have my respect Mr. Peek.

To quote a previous post: "A swing and a miss."

The man is from another country and a visitor to the US and WFFC. It is not his job to play DZ sheriff. There is someone who is running the WFFC as a business and making money from it. Do think it might be his job to run things is a safe manner? I am beginning to think that you might have a vested interest in sweeping possible problems under the carpet.

And we wonder why so much of the world looks at us as arrogant assholes.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 4]

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I'm providing information.

I fail to see where you have provided information on anything other then you ego. You seem to be about belittling others for trying to inform and still other for just having an opinion. Your arrogance as the self appointed guardian of WFFC is obscuring any valid message you may have had.

Sad

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[pincheck 0]

your question on ballon jumping here in the UK it has been done in the past and there is a provision in the BPA(ops manual) for it which requires jumpers to have a B licence with Ch1+2 and Jm1 stickers and 50 jumps.

I think it is because off redtape and regulation which is probably why its not been done in a while.

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To answer your question i had my days full with looking after, coaching and briefing a very low number jumper that came over with my crew. I was helping him with tracking, and awerness as i noticed he was always opening next to people and tracking along with others.

At the same time, he was also coming along on jumps he should not have been on but the peer preassure from the rest of my crew was not letting me stop him from coming.

well do you think taking a low timer who has seperation issues to a event where you will have a lot off people in the sky at once clever or safe perhaps you should have taken that person to a smaller boogie.

As for peer pressure you could have stood up and told the rest of your crew to show some maturity and lay off this person.I will take a wild guess that this is a young jumper as most older people will say No which is something i have done in the past.

Uk jumpers are more regulated that most places, which doesn't mean you shouldn't stop thinking for yourself. Don't know about your places in Newzealand Bigway.

I still take personal responsability for my actions/saftey gear whatever, even though we have others doing it as well.

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun

[popsjumper 2]

Bigway, I'm not convinced that you really understand exit order...I can't tell for sure what you are thinking by your posts - call me dumbass but just in case.....

Take a look at these links.

Bill Von Novak's treatise:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=628

John Kallend's animated demo:
http://www.omniskore.com/freefall_drift2.html

.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[notaccountable 0]

To quote a previous post: "A swing and a miss."
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I see you two think alike as well. Very sad, but at least you have a buddy.

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The man is from another country and a visitor to the US and WFFC. It is not his job to play DZ sheriff.
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So whether it's at the WFFC or any other boogie, you are telling it's NOT HIS JOB???? No wonder this sport isn't progressing much anymore. It's attitudes like that, that are killing off our sport and jumpers. It IS his job to do any and everything he can to help with a SELF policing sport. I just don't think you have a clue.

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There is someone who is running the WFFC as a business and making money from it. Do think it might be his job to run things is a safe manner?
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I would assume there are people in place to assist with these efforts, as with any boogie.

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I am beginning to think that you might have a vested interest in sweeping possible problems under the carpet.
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Oh let's see here.... I'M THE GUY SAYING WE ALL NEED TO STAND UP AND POLICE OUR SPORT TOGETHER TO MAKE IT A SAFER PLACE FOR ALL, and you are saying it's his job???? I DO have a vested interest in my sport, you are right about that. I would like to keep it around for a while, but with the "it's not my job attitudes" it WILL be reduced and controlled by people that do not have an interest in skydiving in the future. You might want to talk fact and information, instead of trying to just flame. Ego??? I have none. Mission: to get people to start taking responsibility for their actions. You've pinned it's the WFFC. I guess it's on here, because it has just happened, but it's the entire sport of skydiving.
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And we wonder why so much of the world looks at us as arrogant assholes.
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From what I've read in your replies, I can see exactly why people feel that way, feel free to quit for the collective effort of all involved. Take one for the team. Or you could grow up and address the issues and concerns with actions of someone that actually CARES about this sport.

(DYING TO LEARN OR LEARNING TO DIE, JUST A THOUGHT)

[Elisha 1]

notaccountable,
If you could organize your reply better, some of us might have a clue what you are actually saying. I'm not going to look at every prior post just to see who is who. Thanks.

[notaccountable 0]

If you could organize your reply better, some of us might have a clue what you are actually saying. I'm not going to look at every prior post just to see who is who. Thanks.
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Thanks for the information. I will most certainly make a better attempt in the future. Any suggestion on improving, that would be a great help.

As of now I cut and paste statements to this post from other posts to give reference to. If there is a better way please educate me.

(DYING TO LEARN OR LEARNING TO DIE, JUST A THOUGHT)

[Zenister 0]

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I guess that is what it is coming down to.

the thing is that students or sub 100 jump numbers dont usually know any better and will be wanting to try it all. I think there should be someone looking out for these people.

Different culture, maybe... i dont think it is responsible though if someone lets a guy with 60 jumps to jump out of a balloon into danger landing areas when he can not even perform a stand up landing on the dz as it is.

Where i come from we dont let people kill themselves.

I'm glad i dont come from where you do.. as aparently you dont let anyone TAKE RESPONSIBILITES FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR ACTIONS...

if they are a Legally Recognized ADULT they should be allowed to risk their lives in any manner that doesnt risk the lives of others as well..

far to many Mothering types in your world i guess...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[MotherGoose 0]

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if they are a Legally Recognized ADULT they should be allowed to risk their lives in any manner that doesnt risk the lives of others as well..

far to many Mothering types in your world i guess...

I'm glad you made that point . . . risk your own life all you want . . . don't put mine in jeopardy. I'm sure that's all bigway is getting at throughout all of this.

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[loudtom 5]

I was on a skyvan load and they were putting students out that were on radio and student gear pulling at 4500 feet who were at the same time on 8-ways before big freefly groups who were pulling at 3000 feet.
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As one of the AFF instructors with many of those students you are talking about, let me explain.
We always used the student, or Tandem landing area. With east jump runs we had to get out first to allow our students to land in their designated landing area. Every group after us usually landed in the main landing area so they wanted to be farther east. Knowing our students were pulling higher than than they were They usually gave us more time than normal on exit to keep from falling over us. We discussed this with most of the people who asked why we would be going out first and no-one I talked to had a problem with it. It makes sense doesn't it? When there was a west jump run we obviously got out last as is the normal procedure.
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I had a problem with that but felt like an idiot when i said something.
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You never talked to me. And I cannot believe any of my fellow instructors would have made you feel this way. WE had a great response from the flight line people and most people in the planes!! WE were only concerned with the safety of our students as well as people jumping with us on the same plane.
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Yes we need to police it ourselves and it is all very easy to saythat on the internet but saying it on the plane and having anyone listen is a different story.

[bigway 4]

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I was on a skyvan load and they were putting students out that were on radio and student gear pulling at 4500 feet who were at the same time on 8-ways before big freefly groups who were pulling at 3000 feet.
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As one of the AFF instructors with many of those students you are talking about, let me explain.
We always used the student, or Tandem landing area. With east jump runs we had to get out first to allow our students to land in their designated landing area. Every group after us usually landed in the main landing area so they wanted to be farther east. Knowing our students were pulling higher than than they were They usually gave us more time than normal on exit to keep from falling over us. We discussed this with most of the people who asked why we would be going out first and no-one I talked to had a problem with it. It makes sense doesn't it? When there was a west jump run we obviously got out last as is the normal procedure.
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I had a problem with that but felt like an idiot when i said something.
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You never talked to me. And I cannot believe any of my fellow instructors would have made you feel this way. WE had a great response from the flight line people and most people in the planes!! WE were only concerned with the safety of our students as well as people jumping with us on the same plane.
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Yes we need to police it ourselves and it is all very easy to saythat on the internet but saying it on the plane and having anyone listen is a different story.

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Just as there are no stupid questions in skydiving if you are not sure about something and thought it unsafe then shame on you for NOT speaking up and making yourself heard. Embarrassment is no excuse. I always tried to explain why we did what we did in a pleasant manner anytime anyone asked.