What would make you "turn in" someone to the FAA?

[rasmack 0]

Jeez some people need to relax here. It is not like it is a state secret that people sometimes go a little too close to... industrial haze. We pretty much all know when it is time to talk to someone. Probably most of us have gotten talked to at one time or the other. I know I have.

I guess what I am saying is that we are probably pretty good at self-policing. Letting things slide, however, is not self-policing and you are not doing your friends a favour by doing so. I would hope that we all would know when it is time to pick up the phone and call in the grown-ups. I admit that the scenarios I have in my head for this to happen are pretty damn unlikely, but one should never underestimate the power of stupidity. Frank Zappa probably said it best:

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Whoever we are
Wherever were from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Frenchy68 0]

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I guess what I am saying is that we are probably pretty good at self-policing

Uh? We're terrible at self-policing!
I'd hate to see the Feds involved, but we are fooling ourselves into thinking that we are doing a good job "self-policing" the sport.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[rasmack 0]

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Uh? We're terrible at self-policing!

If that is your observation then what is your conclusion?

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Frenchy68 0]

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Uh? We're terrible at self-policing!

If that is your observation then what is your conclusion?

They're both the same.
But what solution do I have to the problem? I don't have a solution.
As I stated, I'd rather see the Feds kept out of skydiving. Should they be involved, there would be a lot, lot more restrictions. Possibly less deaths and injuries as well.
Self-policing and having fun don't always walk hands in hands.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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So you would turn a blind eye on it and "earn respect"?

Really, really, REALLY sorry to hear that from you. You just lost some, really. Can you be trusted to help keep us safe? Not really.

There is a time to use a BASE jumping rig (and that is in the BASE jumping environment) and there is a time to use a skydiving rig (and that is in the skydiving environment). But there is never a good time to rat on a fellow jumper and a pilot to the FAA. Peek tells us that his actions were based on safety, but I doubt very much that it was about safety. I suspect it was more about wanting to teach the "other" guy a lesson. It's called a power trip and we're all guilty of having them once in a while.

Anyone who knows anything about modern BASE jumping gear knows that the gear is not the weak link and that BASE jumping gear can be used safely in the skydiving environment. But the man (the FAA) says it's not legal to use a non-TSOed rig in the skydiving environment and since the FAA doesn't have the balls to certify a BASE jumping rig as TSOed, well we know that to satisfy the man, we better do as he says. So we shouldn't be using a BASE jumping rig in the skydiving environment. It's really not all that difficult (and I'm not happy when I hear about people jumping BASE rigs out of airplanes).

But unfortunately Peek (and some of you other folks) believe that this was all about safety and it either shows the poor understanding some people have about BASE jumping gear or it shows the negative attitude some people have towards those who BASE jump. This was not about safety because unless the jumper in question was trying to win a low pull contest, he was a lot safer jumping out of the balloon with his BASE rig than I would be with my skydiving swooping rig.

Finally, as far as shattering any image you may have about myself and that I've lost some. Well this isn't high school and it isn't a popularity contest. I call them as I see them and while I wouldn't be hostile towards people like Peek if I ever met him at a boogie, you better believe that he will be remembered as the guy who ratted to the FAA about a fellow jumper and when was the last time being known as a snitch was thought of as a good trait to have?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[peek 21]

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But unfortunately Peek (and some of you other folks) believe that this was all about safety

OK, I give up, I'll respond in this thread too. :)

I'm not sure where I ever said that the reasons for approaching this jumper were for safety reasons. Please point me to it, it's been a long thread, I could have missed something.

I'm trying to:
1. protect a sport (perhaps 2!)
2. protect the WFFC
3. protect balloon jumping at the WFFC

I used peer pressure (granted, not a peer in some people's eyes, but a peer to the WFFC staff) to try to accomplish this in a limited time frame.

Is there anyone who really truly thinks I am hostile toward legal BASE jumps?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I'm not sure where I ever said that the reasons for approaching this jumper were for safety reasons. Please point me to it, it's been a long thread, I could have missed something.

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"it's about safety and the future of our sport"

Yes I would say that you missed it as this quote from above was taken from that thread and they are your words, not mine.

Plus you've repeatedly mentioned that using BASE jumping gear was stupid. Why is using BASE jumping gear stupid? Because the FAA says so? Well the FAA writes the rules and unfortunately we must abide by their rules. So with that respect, using BASE gear in the skydiving environment is not the right thing to do (I'm not disputing you wanting to stop someone from jumping BASE gear at the convention, I'm just questioning why you felt you needed to snitch). Anyway, I sure hope you realize that properly maintained and packed BASE jumping gear is a hell of a lot safer than the skydiving rigs we use. If you don't believe me, then you really need to educate yourself about the simplicity of the BASE jumping rig and better yet, get out there and do some jumps (from the safer objects we know) and maybe you will start understanding why BASE rigs aren't the weak link. The weak link always has been and always will be the human using the gear.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[normiss 798]

I hope that's not the case....but from my view...attitudes and/or tolerance of other's behavior in this country is changing towards the negative.
When I was a kid it was "just being boys" and at the worst I would see the cop car in the driveway...dad and the cop smoking a ciggarette and laughing...until they saw me pull in! We all had a lil chat...the cop left...dad finished scolding me and grounding me (and taking the motorcycle away for riding a wheelie throught middle of the high scholl or mall....) and we were done with it.
These days...the FBI calls you because they have your kid in jail for a suspected crime against society!

We used to look out for one another....you know....I got your back you got mine....

What happened to that attitude? Why do people go out of their way to not so much resolve the situation as to be seen as the authority figure in resolving it via the legal system....and please don't get me started on that one!

Come on people....how do you NOT see it that way?
Do you really hate eveyone around you based on distrust?????

FUCK!

ok...done....going for another drink now....

kinda wish Stitch was in the hills.....

[mjosparky 4]

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when a significant percentage of riggers fall into the above dangerous category?

Are you saying this hypnotically way or do you think this is true?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 4]

In light of recent history it would have better to have passed on this thread.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[skypuppy 1]

The FAA has no reason to try to certify a rig, it's up to the manufacturer to decide if he wants to complete the procedures to TSO his product. Some Canadian manufacturers of skydiving gear have gone ahead and gotten their products TSO'd, I guess in the hopes of selling more equipment in the US.

However it would be up to the BASE manufacturers to TSO their own equipment, not the FAA.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I stand corrected.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[peek 21]

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Why is using BASE jumping gear stupid?

I said using BASE gear out of a balloon is stupid, because it harms skydiving.

I guess I need to repeat once more that I am not anti-BASE.

[jdatc 0]

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Why is using BASE jumping gear stupid?

I said using BASE gear out of a balloon is stupid, because it harms skydiving.

I guess I need to repeat once more that I am not anti-BASE.

I understand that you are not anti-base, but I fail to see how a BASE rig from a balloon harms skydiving more than a lot of the other things I have seen.

I would have no problem if you were trying to stop every problem in skydiving (which we know is an up hill impossible battle), but it seems like you kind of singled this guy out when there were a lot more detrimental things to skydiving occurring at the convention.

This was just a guy taking his BASE rig out of a balloon on an early morning load most likely with the pilot's consent.. Against the rules, yes, can't debate that fact, but if you had to rate the harm it was doing to skydiving out of a 1 to 10, i'd say a 1....

And then the whole FAA thing..

They (FAA Management especially) are not anyone's buddy regardless how well you know them. Trust me on this. Because if something were to happen, and their butt is on the line, it will be them over us.

-Justin

[wmw999 2,439]

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This was just a guy taking his BASE rig out of a balloon on an early morning load

The rest of the story is that it was at the WFFC. Which means more people, more chance for just about anything, more chance for someone asking the guy when he lands "how come the other guy I picked up had more on his back?" or something like that.

It's the WFFC. It's not the time for doing illegal aviation stuff in a low profile manner. Really. I'm hoping that the airplanes are all in tiptop shape, too. More than a lot of events, WFFC is skydiving.

Nothing wrong with BASE jumping a balloon with a knowledgeable pilot. Just don't do it where any fuckup is pretty much guaranteed to fuck up a bunch of people, instead of just the ones who participated.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[popsjumper 2]

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Hell, I haven't said anything controversial for a while, so here goes:

What would make you "turn in" someone to the FAA?

By this I mean, (for situations in the US) how serious of an FAR violation would concern you so much that you would turn in someone to the FAA knowing that it would be likely that they would have an FAA certificate (pilot, rigger, mechanic) revoked or suspended, or if they had no certificate, would have legal (civil) action taken against them? ("Turning in" being defined as writing a letter of formal complaint and identifying yourself.)

To answer my own question first: "I don't know". I'll have to think about it a while.

Well, I don't see anything in the OP that mentions BASE or anything specific.

Of course one would want to handle things internally as a first, and probably second, attempt but there comes a time when internal policing just doesn't work as when the "perp" just doesn't cooperate or just doesn't get it. So what other recourse do you have?

Wouldn't you want someone "watching your back" when some illegal action by others would jeopardize your safety...even your life? And wouldn't that include getting the FAA involved if self-policing didn't work?

Would you knowingly jump an airplane that was maintained by a non-certified shade-tree mechanic? Would you notify the FAA is he/she refused to quit doing it and continued to fly your buddies in a "questionable" airplane, one that you just knew was unsafe? And yes, many of us have done it when we knew the "mechanic" and his skills. And many of us have refused to get in the rat trap instead of notifying the FAA.

It sounds to me that you are pissed at Peek and not thinking in the broader sense in which the OP was presented.

I know I would be pissed if someone knew of an unsafe situation and didn't take some sort of definite action to rectify it and someone got hurt as a result.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rasmack 0]

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... But there is never a good time to rat on a fellow jumper and a pilot to the FAA.

You are making one very very dangerous assumption here. You are assuming that your fellow jumpers will never do anything stupid enough. They will and they have. Take for example the idiots that got drunk last week and hit the Mullins King Air (right wing) with a trailer at night. They weren't going to tell anyone. Their friend found this out and called the cops on it. The FAA was on the ball immediately and Mullins was flying testflights from 5am. Now, I was doing a HALO jump at 6am that morning. These fellow jumpers put me personally at risk by damaging an airplane. Is that stupid enough for you?

Personally I am very happy someone "ratted out their friends".

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[460 0]

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A question for Peek: how about a rigger you discover who actively smokes weed? Or perhaps uses even harder substances? Do you report the person and take away a potential livelihood when a significant percentage of riggers fall into the above dangerous category?

I don't know. One of the problems would be knowing whether a person was impaired while rigging. Part of any process is finding out the truth, which is all but impossible in many cases.

"significant percentage of riggers"?
That should give everyone a warm and fuzzy feeling.

So in the interest of safety and skydiving, "Peek" has no opinion regarding stoned and potentially impaired riggers?

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[OnYourBack 0]

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"significant percentage of riggers"?
reply]

How in the world could you even claim to know that this is or is not the case?

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[mjosparky 4]

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Do you report the person and take away a potential livelihood when a significant percentage of riggers fall into the above dangerous category?

I call bullshit, how can you claim this when you don't know a “significant percentage of riggers” in this country. Credibility near zero.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[peek 21]

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So in the interest of safety and skydiving, "Peek" has no opinion regarding stoned and potentially impaired riggers?

"I don't know" does not mean "no opinion", at least to me.

Just because I expressed my opinion on one subject does not mean I owe the world an opinion on everything.

I don't have a formal "mission statement" or anything!

[460 0]

From being at DZs. Ever heard of a "safety meeting?"

In reality, I respect riggers a great deal and I'm just trying to add fuel to the dz.com fire regarding the selective use of self policing and regulations.

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[wwarped 0]

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Look at my post, I stated that the FAA often doesn't get the DZO in trouble. So far the incident you're talking about is literally 1 out of 25 that I've seen and/or read about in recent times.

I read your post, and I assume your historical information is accurate.

if the FAA has shifted policy, past performance may not be indicative of future performance.

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[Hooknswoop 19]

I've read both threads. Seems to me that Gary didn't snitch, but, realizing that the jumper and the pilot wouldn't get in trouble, believing the jumper didn't fully appreciate the situation, and personally knowing the FAA person, he was trying to make an impression on the jumper. He did not file a complaint with the FAA. His intention was not to get the jumper or anyone else in trouble with the FAA. I think he felt that if an FAA person talked to the jumper, the jumper might realize that the FAA was around and jumping a BASE rig out of a balloon in front of them was not a good idea. If Gary had not personally known the FAA person, or filed a complaint with the FAA, that would be a different story, but that is not what I understand happened.

I disagree with those that say they would never call the FAA. I have never called the FAA, but probably should have in one particular case. I think that attitude is what allows DZO's to get away with breaking the FAR's because they know no one will turn them in and the FAA is unlikely to catch them unless something goes wrong.

Self-policing does not mean never call the authorities, it means every jumper is responsible for ensuring the rules are followed. Now, I'll be the first to admit have broken numerous BSR's and busted a lot of clouds. I have jumped a BASE rig out of a balloon. I did it with the full knowledge and understanding of the pilot. It was not at a skydiving event, there was no video, and the chances of the FAA being around were slim to none. Had I gotten caught, I would have withheld the pilot's information and taken the wrap. Had a USPA rep taken action against me for a BSR volition, I would have taken the hit. If a jumper or DZO is putting others at risk or being an idiot, I would expect skydivers to do their job, self-policing, and take action as necessary. Unfortunately, this does not usually. They will allow a cover-up of someone jumping a BASE rig out of an airplane. Skydivers just want to do their thing, do not want to be told they can't do something, and do not want to be bothered with self-policing. When a jumper does take a stand, they generally find themselves an outcast, other jumpers will avoid them like they have leprosy, and they sure as hell won't support them, regardless if they are right or not.

If you are operating outside the rules, don't whine if you get caught. Man up, take the hit and move on.

Too many skydivers act like it is their right to break the rules. Too many skydivers act like someone that does stand up for what is right is a traitor to all skydivers. Too many skydivers do not take responsibility for self-policing. It is not fair to expect someone that does stand up for what is right to stand up for any and every infraction, regardless of how small or risk being called a hypocrite. This is where good judgment comes into play. Would you expect a police officer to write a citation for every broken law they see? Or would you expect them to use their better judgment and issue citations for the more serious infractions, warnings for smaller infractions and let slide the trivial infractions?

What if you knew the DZO was not doing the maintenance on the aircraft? What if you talked to them about it and they told you to pack sand and jump somewhere else if you don’t like it. What if none of the other jumpers at the DZ you talked to about it cared and basically told you they don’t want to hear about it? Would you do nothing? What if the next week, the plane crashed, killing your fellow jumpers and several unsuspecting students? What if you could have prevented it by calling the FAA? Are you morally partially responsible for their deaths? If you could have prevented their deaths and didn’t, what kind of person does that make you? What if you fellow jumper told you about the lack of maintenance and you told them you didn’t want to hear about it. What kind of person does that make you?

What if you friend is stoned out of their mind and are on the way to the airplane to make a jump. If you don’t do whatever it takes to stop them and they bounce, what kind of person does that make you? Their friend? Loyal? A non-traitor?

What if your friend was about to jump a BASE rig out of a balloon and you knew the pilot didn’t understand they were putting their license at risk? What if flying hot-air balloon was how this pilot made a living and fed their family? What if you knew the FAA was about and had a good chance of witnessing the jump? What would you do if you couldn't stop them from jumping?

Doing the right thing can be difficult. Especially in skydiving where so few do the right thing and so many do not.

What kind of person are you?

Derek

[wwarped 0]

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I'm trying to:
1. protect a sport (perhaps 2!)
2. protect the WFFC
3. protect balloon jumping at the WFFC

I used peer pressure (granted, not a peer in some people's eyes, but a peer to the WFFC staff) to try to accomplish this in a limited time frame.

um, remember that it also is a violation of the FARs to carry people who are drunk or otherwise intoxicated.

[sarcasm]
such people create safety hazard to themselves, their fellow jumpers, and people on the ground.

I think I might warn the FAA of this activity to:
1. protect a sport
2. protect the WFFC
3. protect pilots at the WFFC
[/sarcasm]

which illegal activity is more visible?
which illegal activity did you choose to act upon?

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse