salling772 0 #1 August 1, 2006 i allways where my helmet and setbelt untill the air plane is over 4000 ft . just this sunday i was jumping and about half the load on a casa load on takeoff did not have their helmet on.---------------------------------------------- All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you. J. R. T. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #2 August 1, 2006 Quotei allways where my helmet and setbelt untill the air plane is over 4000 ft . Once the door is open this is risky. Belts off at a grand."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #3 August 1, 2006 QuoteOnce the door is open this is risky. Belts off at a grand. Say it again. If you accidentally get ripped out, you get ripped out. If you are wearing your seatbelt and accidentally get ripped out, you take a chunk of airplane too. Don't open the door (for freshair, etc) until EVERYONE unhooks. I don't care how hot it is in the plane. One loose pilot chute....... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #4 August 1, 2006 Quotei allways where my helmet and setbelt untill the air plane is over 4000 ft I would have a very serious problem /concern with you then doing that (leaving your seatbelt on), if the plane were above 1,500 ft (then +2,000; 3,000 & 4k??) if the door to that A/C were also opened (as is standard practice on hot summer days for many DZ's) after clearing 1k-1,500. How in your estimation, once above 2-3k AGL do you see yourself (or any of those around you as a result for that matter ) as any "safer" by employing this practice? Please THINK/re-think about this.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #5 August 1, 2006 Guys, your good discussion of helmets on for takeoff and seatbelts is going to get deleted if its not moved from the incident forum... just my 2 cents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #6 August 1, 2006 Oops, I did not see these other replies (Ron & Bill's) before having already posted mine. Howver, another consideration (not only loose pilot chute) would be required/sudden emergency exit situation presenting itself at say 3-grand. A pilot commanded "EVERYBODY OUT" at 3-grand and this guy sitting by the door (or anywhere between any other jumpers and the door), and ANY hesitation or problems would potentially wreak HAVOC (can you picture someone either forgetting then trying to get up, and/or then STUCK fumbling for their belt BLOCKING the exit egress??) in such situation! Again, please re-think think this supposed "safety" practice. Feel free to leave your helmet on as long as youd like. But above 1k-1,500 (even door open or NOT), if you are a parachuted jumper, REMOVE AND CLEAR THAT SEATBELT/RESTRAINT! Thank you. -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #7 August 1, 2006 Sorry I had to move this. Thread drift. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #8 August 1, 2006 Anyway, most DZs I've been to, you keep your belt on until 1K AGL. After that, you can take your belt off and loosen up a bit & crack the door if necessary. Years ago, while jumping at Apple Valley, the DZ policy was no moving around until 2K AGL though. ... because at AV the the field elevation was almost 3K MSL and they were running an A-90 King Air without wing extensions and the pilots wanted the extra buffer in case something sh*t itself after takeoff... fortunately that never happened except at altitude... ... but that's a different story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WatchYourStep 0 #9 August 1, 2006 1000 AGL the seatbelt comes off. What are people's thoughts on routing your helmet through your chest strap? Not taking a side here just ASKING for opinions. "You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #10 August 1, 2006 QuoteWhat are people's thoughts on routing your helmet through your chest strap? Good question... Well, if its routed through your chest strap during takeoff, its not going to do YOUR head much good if the plane goes in... however, for my sake and the rest of the folks on the plane, if someone isn't going to wear their helmet for takeoff, I'd rather see them route it through their chest strap, so, in the event of a crash it doen't become a missile that could hurt someone else... especially if its a camera helment which tend to have more mass. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #11 August 1, 2006 QuoteAnyway, most DZs I've been to, you keep your belt on until 1K. After that, you can take your belt off and loosen up a bit. Years ago, while jumping at Apple Valley, the DZ policy was no moving around until 2K though. Rising terrain should influence when you open the door or remove your seatbelt. For instance, at Perris, a TO to the South and climbout to the SW will place the AC ~500-1000 ft AGL until your altimeter reads almost 2K. The door should only be opened after people have removed their seatbelts. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #12 August 1, 2006 Good point Jan... I've been jumping at Cal City too long... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conquest150 0 #13 August 1, 2006 i will normally wear my helmet on takeoff unless its my camera helmet, then i connect it to my chest strap and if there is enough room i run my seat belt through it. i dont see a problem with this becase if the plane does crash or something goes wrong the only person the helmet is going to bother is me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akjmpplt 0 #14 August 1, 2006 As someone who's landed an airplane after an engine failure on takeoff - twice - I suggest that in a single-engine jump plane you leave the belts on until 2500' or so. In a 182/206/etc with an engine failure at 1000' you'l lbe lucky to have the first guy out of the airplane above 800'...the last guy is going to be much lower. Power off that thing is coming down at better than 1000 fpm. I know, I know it only takes you .0045 nanoseconds to get to the door. That's AFTER you decide to actually go, after you get over the shock of what's happening (everyone will have than minidelay of OH SHIT) and you might not be the first guy in line. How many people are comfortable, or really able, to get out of the airplane below 2000'? Most people, due to the parachutes now being jumped, are pulling higher and exiting higher on intentional low jumps. Just something to think about. Small airplane it only takes a slight hesitation by one person to put you in a position of making a really, really low jump or trying to get strapped back into the airplane before the crash.SmugMug Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #15 August 1, 2006 Good one Zig. ...YOU did it AGAIN! coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #16 August 1, 2006 So then Jan, do jumpers at Perris account for this, and ammend their ingrained procedures accordingly? Or instead rather, like "lemmings" do they all start just automatically unbuckling and "stretching" about when they hear their all fancy fandango gizmo's (pro-tracks, etc.) "sound off" at 1k? I know what my (limited) experience there tells me & I think I may already have that answer, but you're a regular there, so tell me ...this is a very good observation/point for consideration. Is it? (considered?) So, per AKPilot, maybe SOP 2k for a single (Cesna's) 1k-1.5k for twins? Make sense? But certainly NOBODY thinks it makes any sense in ANY case to have your seatbelt fully fastened still at 3k or even 4k, ...right?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akjmpplt 0 #17 August 1, 2006 QuoteBut certainly NOBODY thinks it makes any sense in ANY case to have your seatbelt fully fastened still at 3k or even 4k, ...right? If the door is closed why not leave it on?SmugMug Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #18 August 1, 2006 QuoteSo then Jan, do jumpers at Perris account for this, and ammend their ingrained procedures accordingly? Or instead rather, like "lemmings" do they all start just automatically unbuckling and "stretching" about when they hear their all fancy fandango gizmo's (pro-tracks, etc.) "sound off" at 1k? Well, I'm not going to speak for every jumper out at Perris. Some of them realize this, some of them don't. Sometimes the people in the back of the bus do not pay attention to TO direction. So what I do, when I am up front, is delaying tactics. This is much easier than trying to explain everything in a noisy AC. You just take your sweet time moving to the floor off the aft end of the left bench. You just take your sweet time opening the door. If you do it right, you'll be 1000 ft AGL by the time you open the door. What I have noticed, is that the newer jumpers that 'automatically' open the door at 1000 ft by altimeter, look out the plane and realize they are only 500 ft AGL and then tend to 'delay' on subsequent loads. The visual is the better teacher perhaps??? QuoteI know what my (limited) experience there tells me & I think I may already have that answer, but you're a regular there, so tell me ...this is a very good observation/point for consideration. Is it? (considered?) The Perris Otter doors used to have stickers saying 2000 ft before opening door. Most of those placards (in you will) have been torn off by wear. QuoteSo, per AKPilot, maybe SOP 2k for a single (Cesna's) 1k-1.5k for twins? Make sense? But certainly NOBODY thinks it makes any sense in ANY case to have your seatbelt fully fastened still at 3k or even 4k, ...right? No it does not make sense to have your seatbelt on until 3-4K, even if the door is closed. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #19 August 1, 2006 >So then Jan, do jumpers at Perris account for this . . . . Nope. Seatbelts are off at 1000 feet, and door is opened at 1000-1500. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #20 August 1, 2006 QuoteIf the door is closed why not leave it on? For reasons I've noted in my earlier post regarding rapid-exit required emergencies! I've seen instances where jumpers had forgotten their seatbelts having been fastened the entire ride to jumprun, then when the door comes open, try to get up for climb-out and it cause enough "cluster-F**" HAVOC even WITHOUT all the stress of an actual EMERGENCY taking place! No F'in way! Seriously. Think about that, maybe even ESPECIALLY as the pilot (from your perspective). You get into a situation where you want people OUT, and FAST! Not one where you want them to stay put. You want people all caught up in their seat belts, some of whom I will GUARANTEE you, will now as a result "panic", or at the very least grossly impede that smooth exodus you are now no doubt also ANXIOUS to have occur? I don't think that scenario is all that far fetched either. Otherwise, why not just leave belts on, all the way up to jumprun then? Why bother even taking them off at otherwise arbitrary altitudes (like 3k or 4k AGL) AT ALL then?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #21 August 1, 2006 Good discussion. As to not drift the thread too much... let me try to relate this back to the original question as to when to remove ones seatbelt in a jump plane... A couple of more thoughts in that regard: 1. Taking one's seatbelt off doesn't necessisarily equate to a mad rush to the back of the plane to spread out. 2. [sarcasim] I'm sure, as the Limit Goes to Infinity, an arguement could be made that we should stay helmeted up and belted in (5 points) until the green light goes on... [/sarcasim] ... okay, one more... 3. In any aircraft emergency, the first and formost thing to do is sit tight and listen to the pilot... however... IMO, in the case of something catastropic (wing falls off, smoke and flames in the cockpit, mid-air with another aircraft and the one I'm in is shedding major parts)... if I'm next to the door, I'm gonna get out and take my chances with my reserve say anything 800' to 2K... above that, main... again this applies only to something CATASTROPIC... example... I've got 4 friends that un-assed themselves from a burning Queen Air at a thousand feet; they all went MAIN (most familiar handle and all), fortunately, it was back in the day of big F111 and not the snivelly canopies of today... ... can't do that with your seatbelt on above 1K. Again, wear your belts for takeoff. If they don't mind hearing buckels come undone at 1K, then they don't mind hearing buckels comeing undone at 1K, doesn't mean its right, just means it is. If the DZ says you're to keep them on unitl 2K, thems the rules. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #22 August 1, 2006 QuoteIf the door is closed why not leave it on? Because it takes time to get it off. If I am at my exit altitude I remove my seat belt and stow it out of the way. Once the door is open I am ready to go until about 2-3 grand when I start to relax. Until the door is open I am ready to put my seat belt and helmet back on. You are 100% correct about 1,000 feet being too low. A good number of people have never left at 2 grand, much less 1500 or a 1,000 feet and will freeze in the door. And a single will decend quickly without power...I have a friend who died in a Cessna that lost power. He panicked and cut away insted of pulling the reserve out the door. Smart guy with about 500 jumps at the time....But the panic situation caused him to make a fatal mistake.....BTW, he had an AAD and an RSL and neither saved him."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #23 August 1, 2006 QuoteYou just take your sweet time moving to the floor off the aft end of the left bench. You just take your sweet time opening the door. If you do it right, you'll be 1000 ft AGL by the time you open the door. That no doubt works for YOU, but how many of the rest of the jumpers on that load (probably) already have THEIR seatbelts off/REMOVED anyway, WHILE you are doing this?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #24 August 1, 2006 Ron, good discussion. Remember, Cypres doesn't ARM until 1500' AGL, which I'm sure you know, just posting it incase someone does know that happens across this thread... not sure about Vigil or Astra. Also, a good discussion about panic; very sorry about your friend. Also true, there's probably a lot of newer jumpers out there that haven't gotten out low... I'd venture to guess there are more then a handfull of jumpers with hundres of jumps that have never gotten out lower then tweleve-five. Personally, I've gotten out above 2, but below 3... closer to 3 then 2... on my main, and would again; may not like it, but would. Anyway, as it relates to seatbelts... I don't think keeping your belt on much above 3K even if the door is closed serves much use... unless you're in really bad turbulance, then you ought to consider riding the plane down... I have... ummm... considered it and rode the plane down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
selbbub78 0 #25 August 1, 2006 Quotei allways where my helmet and setbelt untill the air plane is over 4000 ft . just this sunday i was jumping and about half the load on a casa load on takeoff did not have their helmet on. i wait til 1000ft. Don't ALWAYS wear my helmet on takeoff, but it's always secured. CReW Skies,"Women fake orgasms - men fake whole relationships" – Sharon Stone "The world is my dropzone" (wise crewdog quote) "The light dims, until full darkness pierces into the world."-KDM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
