50 bucks a jump for coahcing?

[diverdriver 5]

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I agree with much of what you say, but this rings false. 500 jumps @ $20/jump is $10k. Add student jumps, a rig or two, and other miscellaneous expenses, and I think you'll find that skydiving instructors are paying at least $15-20k to get their ratings.

Is every jump a training jump to be an AFF instructor? No. Many were fun jumps for entertainment and were not focussed instructional training jumps to become a teacher. Your number is inflated.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[GQ_jumper 4]

just an observation but a lot of the coaches I see are guys with barely enough jumps to hold the rating and absolutely no coaching ability whatsoever. A coach course doesn't make you a coach experience as a coach does, students shouldn't have to pay some guys who just passed the coach course, the coach should be doing it for free(maybe earning a discount lift ticket) so he can get the experience to be a good coach.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Ron 10]

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Two: I wanted to bring people's attention to this obvious disparity in DZ pay. Many have been justifying 50 dollar pay for coach jumps yet I see few championing the pilots that get you to altitude so you can make that 50 dollar a jump pay. And the pilot has much more safety related duties than a coach.

And the pilot gets more out of it. It is simple supply economics. To explain let me use my life as an example. I just got a new job. My department (Training) was in a competition with Corporate Safety for a grade level raise. We all wanted the raise, but they were only going to jack the pay of one group.

We had training were the average company time of service was 12-15 years. And the employees when they become traininers tended to stay till they die. It is a position where people fight to get. In my case I had a Sr. Manager put in for the job I got. For this guy it would have been a MASSIVE pay cut.

Then we had Safety. The average time in department was 4 years. The average employee was almost fresh out of school and left the company for more pay. The company could not keep a safety guy since other companies would hire them.

Who do you think got the pay grade? Market forces at work.

If there were less pilots willing to fly jumpers then the pay would be better. But thats true in almost everything aviation.

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What I DID say is that if the market will bare this type of revenue demand then pilots should wise up and collectively demand more. The money is obviously out there.

Not even close to true. I don't pay 50 bucks a coached jump. In fact I know very few people who do pay 50 bucks a coach jump. So you might have 10 people a weekend willing to pay that. But everyone has to get on a plane. And if the pilot demands real money, and the DZO does not just replace him which would be easy. The the jump price ticket has to go up for everyone, not just those 10 people. I know people who wear torn jumpsuits, jump a worn out rig and do not have an AAD. Those are the average jumper, not the few that are willing to pay 50 bucks for a coached jump.

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There is no comparison to a professional skydiver to a DZ pilot. The commerical DZ pilot will have spent at least 15,000 to 20,000 to get the certificates in order to do the job. What did the AFF instructor pay?

Sure there is:

500 jumps X 20 = 10,000
Rig, jumpsuit, alti = 3,000
Course = 600

Thats 13,600 right there.

And what is the AFF I getting for every jump? Liability just as much as the pilot even though it is one person. Plus the pilot is getting hours that the FAA considers compensation.

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So, if it's true people are getting 50 bucks a jump for coaching then the pilots need to let their voices be heard and say some pay needs to come our way.

Already covered, you have a few jumpers willing to pay that 50 bucks, not all.

Like I said, feel free to look or ask for more money. But do not be surprized when you find you are replaced.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,991]

> You all need to be paying your pilots more if you can afford 50
>bucks a jump to hear "you need to stick your legs out more".

There are coaches that will jump for free. There are also coaches that I'd be happy to pay $50 a jump for (and have.) Conversely, there are pilots who will work for peanuts. But show up at Rantoul with your Stearman and you can probably make a fair amount.

>They should demand their fair share.

Sure, have em demand away. But if there's another equally qualified pilot waiting in the wings who wants to fly so badly he will work for less, then he gets the job instead.

[popsjumper 2]

Some DZs charge more than that...I know of at least 1 that charges $80 for a coached jump.....AND $35 for a packing class.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Ron 10]

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Is every jump a training jump to be an AFF instructor? No. Many were fun jumps for entertainment and were not focussed instructional training jumps to become a teacher. Your number is inflated.

Was every hour in the plane to get a rating, or where there a few 100.00 hamburgers in there?

See the problem? I don't discount what a pilot does to get where they are. But you discount what an AFF guy does. Both have people lives in their hands.

But the big issue is market forces. You will not see many people paying 50 bucks extra a jump, only a few will do this. The DZ market is slowing down, the membership of the USPA is dropping, the DZ's are less crowded, less gear is being sold...Ect.

Skydiving is not growing, it is shrinking. Adding cost to everyone will only reduce the amount of jumping.

Some people will pay 50 bucks for a coached jump...I also knew a guy that paid 10 bucks a pack job. But not everone could afford that either.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diverdriver 5]

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Airtwardo, pardon my ignorance, but I do not know what happened in April 1992. But my guess is it involves an airplane accident. Assuming that's the case, I doubt the accident was caused by low pay. More likely it was caused by an inexperienced pilot who shouldn't have been flying regardless of what he was being paid.

Chris, thanks for the comments. I am all for pilots trying their damndest to get paid better. If pilots demand more money and the DZO's agree and it causes an increase in jump ticket prices, we'll see what the market will bear. I, for one, would be happy to pay a little more, but that's because I can afford it and safety is important to me. I can't speak for everyone. And btw, I'm glad you would not burn the flag.

April 1992 was the Perris, CA Twin Otter crash. The pilot had 4,300 hours total flying with 100 in make and model. Here is the official cause which does include pilot error but is more than just pilot error:

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THE PILOT-IN-COMMAND'S INADVERTENT FEATHERING OF THE WRONG PROPELLER FOLLOWING AN ENGINE POWER LOSS, AND THE FAILURE OF THE OPERATOR TO ASSURE THAT THE PILOT WAS PROVIDED WITH ADEQUATE TRAINING IN THE AIRPLANE. FACTORS RELATED TO THE ACCIDENT WERE: WATER CONTAMINATION OF FUEL IN THE AIRPORT STORAGE TANKS, THE OPERATOR'S LACK OF FUEL QUALITY CONTROL PROCEDURES, IMPROPER FUEL SERVICING, IMPROPER PREFLIGHT BY THE PILOT(S), AND EXCEEDING THE GROSS WEIGHT/FORWARD CG LIMITS OF THE AIRPLANE.

I guess it comes back to whether this industry respects the position of pilot. I know that low pay effects pilots but it is hard to give tangeable evidence as it can be suttle or only conjecture by other experienced people who know the story when an accident happens.

From reading many reports I see pilots exhibit low professionalism and allow themselves to be pressured into flying situations that cause accidents. This pressure comes from low pay / low respect of the position. It goes hand in hand. Jump pilots have not had a raise in about 15 years yet everyone else in this sport seems to be making more.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[diverdriver 5]

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Sure, have em demand away. But if there's another equally qualified pilot waiting in the wings who wants to fly so badly he will work for less, then he gets the job instead.

Ahh, there's the rub. You say "equally qualified". Is he? Yes, they both have a commercial license or ATP in case of the CASA. But are they truly "equally" qualified? One pilot has 1,000 hours in a king air alone and knows how to fly through an engine failure just after gear retraction, brings it around, sets it down without a scratch. Another "equally qualified" king air pilot leaves the control lock in and goes off the end of the runway which leaves many jumpers injured and at least one paralised for life. What's equal about that?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[AggieDave 6]

Instructors are underpaid as well. However, its simply supply and demand. There will always be less qualified people to do the work for less money.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diverdriver 5]

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Was every hour in the plane to get a rating, or where there a few 100.00 hamburgers in there?

See the problem? I don't discount what a pilot does to get where they are. But you discount what an AFF guy does. Both have people lives in their hands.

Yes, every hour leading to my 275 hours when graduating with a BS in Aeronautical science WAS a training flight. Now, that training plus the 4 year BS degree cost me much more than 15-20K so I discounted my own cost to bring it in line with many other Commercial pilots. I just considered the flight training at a local FBO and not a 4 year degree program.

I am not discounting what the AFF guy does. In fact I commented that there was time outside of the jump that was valuable. (please re-read my post). What I am talking about is the coach jumps! Robin Heid is saying the 50 dollar coach jumps are killing the sport. Many are paying it so if they are paying that then they can pay more for the pilot. That is what I'm saying.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[diverdriver 5]

By the way...I love the debate folks.

[Ron 10]

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am not discounting what the AFF guy does. In fact I commented that there was time outside of the jump that was valuable. (please re-read my post). What I am talking about is the coach jumps!

I did read your post and I agree to a point.

But did you read how I said that only a few jumpers are actually paying the 50 bucks for a coached jump? It is not accross the board and I know plenty of jumpers who think the price of tickets is too high now. Heck my local DZ it is 23.00 a jump and I have seen the people quit coming out. When asked why, price is at the top of most of their lists. So to pay the coaches 50 bucks you have a few folks willing to do that....Fine, market forces at work.

If the pilots want more money, they are free to ask, but I am saying that the average consumer will not pay 50 bucks for a coached jump and will not pay 25 bucks a jump ticket either.

The higher the tickets, the less jumping we have.

Chris, you are a good pilot, and I trust you. But you seem to be ignoring the simple fact that the market will allow a few people to pay 50 bucks to certain coaches, but not allow a price hike accross the board.

You know the difference between a good pilot and a bad pilot. But the thing is some are bad pilots with lots of time and will never be a good pilot. And the really good pilots will do what you did and leave to get a real job...No matter how much we wish it a DZ will never be able to pay what a regional can and the guys with the EXP will go for the money.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[airtimebabe24 0]

nice job on flying the skydivers, but its not like its a heavy load on the way down. and by the way, you might get paid more if you could spell. (coaching- not coahcing)

"The most wasted day of all is that upon which we have not laughed..." Nicholas Chamfort.

[diverdriver 5]

A bit off topic but anytime someone says "a real pilot job" my skin crawls. If you can die doing it then it's a real pilot job. And that's what we're talking about. The reality of this work. It can kill you. So what are you worth?

I also find it funny that people would quit the sport (not jump) because jump tickets went from 20 to 23 bucks a jump. They f'n pay 4 bucks a Starbucks drink but can't fork over 3 dollars more to do a jump? That really caused them to quit the sport? If they did five jumps a day that's 15 dollars more for the day. That's small potatoes.

No, something else is causing them to quit and they are using this as an excuse. I believe they are quiting because of the dumb canopy collisions happening with greater regularity. I believe they are quiting because of the stupid jump plane crashes every year. I believe that they see people who are supposed to be in charge turn a blind eye to a problem jumper who then becomes a crater or causes someones else to be a crater. I believe that people get tired of seeing jumpers disregard people's safety when they cut their legs off hitting a bridge on a stunt in front of little kids. Etc.... You get my point. They don't know where the next yahoo is coming from and they don't want to be the next target.

They paid 150-180 bucks to come out and do their first tandem then probably spent a lot to get certified and equipped. And 15 dollars more a day caused them to quit jumping all together? Sorry, I'm not buying it even if they are saying it. There is something more at work here. And it is the total lack of collective safety minded focus in this industry. We're still light years behind on canopy control education MANDATORY for anyone getting a new canopy off student status.


But...I must say good luck to you all as I hope this industry stays safe and grows again.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[CMiller 1]

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Ask someone in my generation the name of their first jump Instructor and even though it's over thirty years ago 99% percent of the time they'll not only remember him, they can still remember his voice and many of the lessons delivered. Ask a 20-year who their first jump instructor was from just six months ago and you get a blank look – The FJC has become just another hurdle to get past, like filling out the waiver . . .

I'm 21, made my first jump last september, and I not only remember my first AFF instructors and their names, but I've spoken to them since, dispite the fact I'm now jumping in a different state. Maybe it's the fact that I started at a non-profit parachutte club where money wasn't so much of an issue, and it's done presumably for the love of the sport.

From my experience, the instructors who do it for a living don't quite have the same enthusiasm as those who don't. Finsihing my AFF at a larger dropzone out west, I was given a quick greeting, dive flow, did the dive, went over it, and they moved on to a different student. One was no older than I was. I'm totally convinced they were concerned with getting the money associated with putting out as many students as they could.

I think I'd rather jump with the person who will do it for cheap because they love to jump, rather than the one complaining about lack of pay.

[diverdriver 5]

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nice job on flying the skydivers, but its not like its a heavy load on the way down. and by the way, you might get paid more if you could spell. (coaching- not coahcing)

Wow, you're right.


BTW... Nice capitalization and punctuation use.

[bigairnut 0]

airtimebabe, I hate to do this to you but you left yourself open and being the smartass that I am, I must point out that in your profile you spelled "of" incorrectly. At least Chris mispelled a somewhat more difficult word.

Chris, I agree, I don't know a single person who would quit jumping due to $3 more per ticket. Similarly most DZ's are somewhat far from metro areas and therefore many jumpers drive a good distance to the DZ and I've not heard anyone say high gas prices are causing them to quit jumping. I don't buy the argument that people are jumping less because it's too expensive. Yes it's not a cheap sport to get into, but other than the initial equipment cost (and we all know you can buy good used gear reasonably priced) it's not any more expensive than golf, wakeboarding, snowboarding, etc. At the end of the day it's a matter of priorities and for those whose priority is skydiving there is no cost concern as far as I can tell.

[bigairnut 0]

CMiller, what do you want them to do? Go over the dive and then sit around and shoot the bull with you? They have a JOB to do. Their job is to take care of ALL the customers. I don't know what you do for a living, but my guess is that you don't just hang out for the hell of it. If you want to chit chat with your JM, it can be done when they are off the clock. In my experience most are willing to do that after the last load takes off and the beer light is on. Having said that, if your JM doesn't adequately debrief you and provide adequate feedback, then that is indeed another story and not acceptable.

[Ron 10]

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A bit off topic but anytime someone says "a real pilot job" my skin crawls. If you can die doing it then it's a real pilot job. And that's what we're talking about. The reality of this work. It can kill you. So what are you worth?

Well I use "real job" as higher pay with retirement. Why did you quit flying jumpers?

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I also find it funny that people would quit the sport (not jump) because jump tickets went from 20 to 23 bucks a jump. They f'n pay 4 bucks a Starbucks drink but can't fork over 3 dollars more to do a jump? That really caused them to quit the sport? If they did five jumps a day that's 15 dollars more for the day. That's small potatoes.

I said they quit coming out. They don't quit, they just don't come out as much. There used to be people who would live at the DZ, and pound out the jumps. I was talking the the DZM this weekend about this and he made that comment. The plane shut down before sunset on a Saturday.

I can tell you that I don't go out as much as I used to (and I can organize, do AFF, Tandems...ect, but the work is not there as it used to be), neither does my GF. We found other things to do. Not just because of the cost, but in a part due to it.

I think you forget that a good number of jumpers are doing this as RECREATION. And as the economy went south after the tech bubble burst and pay checks have not kept up with inflation and the gas prices the first thing to go is recreation. Yet, you want to increase the cost more to all? Still ignoring that only a few pay that 50 bucks a coached jump.

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They paid 150-180 bucks to come out and do their first tandem then probably spent a lot to get certified and equipped. And 15 dollars more a day caused them to quit jumping all together? Sorry, I'm not buying it even if they are saying it

So you discount what the people who quit say? Thats not very good logic...And you STILL ignore my point about only a few willing to pay that 50 bucks.

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There is something more at work here. And it is the total lack of collective safety minded focus in this industry

The industry is a hell of a lot more focused on saftey than ever before in my time. There are still giant holes, but the gear is better, instruction is getting better accross the board instead of how it used to be...Ya know a few great instructors, a few OK, and some down right terrible.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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At the end of the day it's a matter of priorities and for those whose priority is skydiving there is no cost concern as far as I can tell.

Key being " whose priority is skydiving". Thats not everyone. Ask why people quit. The top three will be:

1. Injury
2. Friend got hurt.
3. Money/Time.

Now for someone who's priority is jumping, none of that will matter. But for someone who does this for fun and has a house, job, family....Well those are the majority of jumpers, not the air junkies.

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it's not any more expensive than golf, wakeboarding, snowboarding, etc.

I bet the ski resorts have seen a reduction as well.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[bigairnut 0]

Ron, let me clarify my statement. I'm talking about leisure time priorty, not priority over job, family, house, etc. If my job or family were the issue, I don't care if the gear was free and someone paid me to jump, that would not elevate it above job and family. I'm simply refuting the opinion that many stop jumping SOLELY because of the cost.

[billvon 2,991]

>One pilot has 1,000 hours in a king air alone and knows how to fly
>through an engine failure just after gear retraction, brings it around, sets it
>down without a scratch. Another "equally qualified" king air pilot leaves the
>control lock in and goes off the end of the runway which leaves many
>jumpers injured and at least one paralised for life. What's equal about that?

You're talking about outcomes, not qualifications - and they're not the same thing. I'm sure you wouldn't describe Rob Harris or Patrick DeGayardon as unqualified skydivers, even if they had worse outcomes than the local 200 jump wonder under a Stiletto 120 who keeps surviving his landings.

I agree with your basic premise that DZO's should hire good pilots. I'm glad I do most of my jumping at a DZ where I know the pilots pretty well, and know their level of proficiency. However, I don't think a good pilot who is willing to work for less is any less qualified than a good pilot who wants more money - and in the DZ business, the person who will work for less gets the job. It's up to the DZO (or the chief pilot) to make sure they are qualified for the job.

[airtwardo 7]

But my guess is it involves an airplane accident.

***

It does, Perris Vally, Ca. 15 skydivers and the pilot were killed.
It was the largest loss of life in a single skydiving incident to date.

I mentioned it only by date to try to get a 'feel' of where you are coming from, since you have elected not to have info of any kind in your bio.

Just what IS your skydiving experience?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Ron 10]

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Ron, let me clarify my statement. I'm talking about leisure time priorty, not priority over job, family, house, etc. If my job or family were the issue, I don't care if the gear was free and someone paid me to jump, that would not elevate it above job and family. I'm simply refuting the opinion that many stop jumping SOLELY because of the cost.

What if the cost was the issue? Sally needs braces, you wife wants to go on Vacation, little Timmy is now in Med school?

Recreation is the first to go. The economy is not doing great and the simple fact is jumps and jumpers are down. Why else do you think our numbers are dropping? Discretionary income has been reduced and recreation has become more expensive.

Here is an example http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1985616#1985616

and another http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=716731#716731

There are more

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[bigairnut 0]

Airtwardo, I don't believe that my experience is very relevant in this discussion given that the arguments being made in this topic are mostly about free market forces, not skydiving specifically. Anyway, I have nothing to hide and since you asked I have about 400 jumps and have been in the sport for about 10 years with a couple of fairly lengthy absences. I have recently gotten back into jumping and have made about 100 jumps in the last 6 months. I'm glad to be back and having a blast!

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