MarkM 0 #76 July 9, 2006 Quote I went out and got the coach rating, spending the money, because I wanted the privilege to jump with people with low experience - and to do it safely... It cost less than a weekend of fun jumps... ($200 ish) My evaluators were tough - and on my first real coach jump the student tried to track under me and pull, the next he never tracked at all because at 7 grand he looked down and the ground "looked huge" and he pulled in my face... I'm sorry, but the "do it safely" thing sounds like a bullshit excuse for the coach rating. An AFF grad can do solos for almost all of their next 15-20 jumps, get their A and pull the same "I'm gonna kill you sucka" things when they get in the air with other people(who may very well be noobs themselves). If safety is such a reason for the rating, it shouldn't have just a 100 jump requirement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #77 July 9, 2006 QuoteI'm sorry, but the "do it safely" thing sounds like a bullshit excuse for the coach rating. An AFF grad can do solos for almost all of their next 15-20 jumps, get their A and pull the same "I'm gonna kill you sucka" things when they get in the air with other people(who may very well be noobs themselves). All the more reasons to have good coaching and a learning progression that teaches the "rest of the story"... If the newbie finishes the ISP - completes the ISP where the AFF categories end, perhaps they will be a better skydiver - and one that other jumpers want to jump with... Quote If safety is such a reason for the rating, it shouldn't have just a 100 jump requirement. I disagree... With modern technology like wind tunnels and good coaching - by 100 jumps someone can lay a solid base for a student and teach basic body position... It takes a dedicated person with 100 jumps to do it well - but, if someone tries and takes the responsibility seriously, they can be a great coach by then... I actually was a coach candidate evaluator a few months ago, and the best candidates had less than 100 jumps and just had to wait on jump numbers to get the rating... They had a gift in teaching - and were lucky to have received great coaching themselves so they could emulate what they learned... It was awesome to see. A coach has to be able to teach and evaluate how well someone can break off from a group formation skydive - and see how well students remember altitude awareness when the dives become less structured and more "playful"... I think 100 is a great compromise between a larger number which would probably be "more safe" - and having it be a free-for-all that any student skydiver can jump with any licensed skydiver... I disagreed with the USPA when they changed the rules allowing D licenced jumpers to do up to a 4 way with two students... I thought it diluted the training program because anyone who did 500 hop-n-pops and cared less about the ISP and teaching could say, "wanna jump" - but at the same time I have myself done a 4 way with 2 AFF instructors and 2 students and seen how much learning can be done and had a lot of fun - so the concept is great. If I was the USPA - I would have solved "the problem" instead by waving the coach candidate air evaluations for "D" licensed jumpers, but asked that they audit the ground class to make sure they were on the same page as everyone else - making the coach rating nearly free for "D" licenced jumpers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #78 July 9, 2006 >...at 7 grand [the student] looked down and the ground "looked huge" and he pulled in my face... >...An AFF grad can do solos for almost all of their next 15-20 jumps, get their A and pull the same "I'm gonna kill you sucka" things when they get in the air with other people(who may very well be noobs themselves). ================================== Exactly. Personally, I think recent AFF grads SHOULD have a bunch more solos under their belts before they move on to do even basic RW. I see AFF grads with 10 or 12 jumps going out on 3 & 4-ways and I have to say it makes me nervous. 10 or 15 solo jumps after AFF learning to really purge sensory overload, get comfortable being in that column of air, dial in some altitude awareness, work on the solo-type skills on the A-license card, and fly his canopy to landing without other canopies in the pattern with him is pretty reasonable, in my book, before going on to learn RW. Someone lacking enough altitude and situational awareness that he pulls in someone else's face at 7k should maybe spend a few more jumps getting used to being a solo skydiver. But there's peer pressure on the new AFF grad to go out and jump with other people when he's really barely qualified to go out and keep himself alive on a solo, much less avoid killing other people in the sky with him; and for many, that's too soon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #79 July 9, 2006 QuoteBut I agree - $23 for your slot, $23 for your coach slot, $25 for gear rental, $10 in coach gratuity - is enough to make a wannabe skydiver go home... AMEN! What happened to the good ol' days of the up-jumpers taking a newbie or two along on a jump and learnin' them something along the way to "give something back to the sport"... and then the newbies bought the beer at the end of the day... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #80 July 9, 2006 QuoteAMEN! What happened to the good ol' days of the up-jumpers taking a newbie or two along on a jump and learnin' them something along the way to "give something back to the sport"... and then the newbies bought the beer at the end of the day... What happend? People wanted skydiving to become popular like skiing. Well this is a step in that direction. How many skiing places accept new folks right from the bunny hills unless they make friends in the lodge? I don't agree, but people bitch that skydiving should be more professional, more organized. Well, that includes more rules and more money."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #81 July 14, 2006 ...There is a difference between just going out and laying base for someone and turning points around them and actually coaching them and teaching the techniques needed to be great skydivers... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ First, an apology. I don't mean to keep this thread on life support, but I haven't had internet access for several days... I was intrigued by this comment, but failed to address it last time. Why do you assume that my ability to teach a new jumper is limited to just laying base and turning points? Since my early days, when I was a novice jumping with new graduates, I WAS coaching/teaching, much the same way others had done for me, and the way they were taught by those before them, etc. The exchange of helpful information from one jumper to another has been a staple of the learning process since the days of rounds, jump boots, and baton passes. This does not require a formal, uniform training structure. By the way, I agree with another comment made about "instructors" who might have the knowledge and the ratings, but who cannot effectively communicate with others. Cheers, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
