Lessons learned/ AFF Concern

[peregrinerose 0]

I just did my second AFF yesterday (finally, mother nature cooperated). Learned a couple really good lessons, but have one big concern...

First lesson... If I am remotely uncomfortable with something, stand up for myself or don't jump. The rig I jumped last time (230) was out. This DZ is pretty conservative with how they do things (and very rightfully so in the interests of safety), so instead of going down in size they gave me a 240. As they were helping me get ready, everything about the rig felt way to big, shoulder straps not snug, I could barely reach hackey (guess I should mention I'm only 5'3"), and I did voice that concern. My instructor reassured me that it was okay, that everything was tightened as far as it could go, and since he has a bajillion jumps to my 1 AFF and 1 tandem, I let it go. Well, when I did my practice pulls and real pull I had a hell of a time reaching, but did manage. As the chute opened, the chest strap flew up to my chin, since I was looking up to make sure I had a good canopy, it left a nice welt on my neck and I spent the entire canopy ride stretching as far as possible to avoid choking. I could only reach toggles with my fingertips, so took several seconds to wiggle those down too. It was not a good thing. I should have requested the same rig or equivalent one, and if not available return to jump another day instead of jumping something that I wasn't entirely sure of to begin with.

Lesson number 2... I am in charge of my own skydive. Yes, that's beaten into your head from the very start, but it's one thing to hear it, quite another to put into practice. As I was entering landing pattern, I knew I was short of landing area and would be in a field behind a small rise and out of line of sight of radio coach. As my feet were just above the height of the rise, I would guess I was about 10 feet up based on the size of the rise and where I was in relation to it, I started to flare, but the radio coach said 'wait' just as I started to flare. I hesitated just long enough to let my ass hit the ground as he finally did say 'flare' at about the same time. Following my instincts would have given me a nice standup landing instead of a sliding landing on my butt. Not a big deal about the landing, but the fact that I didn't take charge of my own skydive when something didn't quite seem right is my fault. This time it didn't really matter, but it could have.

Now to my concern... Initially a person that I knew, a woman, was going to be on radio, I was comfortable with that. But all of a sudden, as my canopy opened, it was a guy's voice. Someone I never met and didn't know anything about was talking me down. That made me extremely uncomfortable. To trust someone I've never seen, who never let me know he'd be on radio, never told me how he did things (like my radio coach on AFF1 did), bothered me a lot. He never stopped talking, which made me nervous, not really giving directions, just babbling a bit most of the time. And even after I landed I still never knew who this person was. In something like this, you need to trust the coaches, and when a coach is a faceless voice and a total surprise, how can you trust them? I although everything went fine, I felt awkward with that. Is this a valid concern that I should bring up, or am I too sensitive to this? I'm fine with letting it go, it wasn't a major thing, but if I should bring it up, how do I do so tactfully?

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[riggerrob 643]

Jennifer,
You made a legitimate complaint about that harness, but you are being overly sensitive about the radio coach.
Clearly you need a small harness.
Even the best radio coach cannot tell you exactly when to flare when you land a long way away him/her.
Sounds like you are heads-up under canopy. The sooner you get off radio the better.
For example - at Pitt Meadows - the radio becomes a formality by the fourth or fifth jump.

[RyanofOZ 0]

Jen,

Sounds like you had an interesting AFF1. I agree with you in that tihngs could have been done a lot better.

The rig.

That is the part that I am not happy about. Student rigs, by nature are "fit nobody" rigs. That being said, there should always be one that fits pretty close. Your instructor with the bagillion jumps should know better. IMO that put your safety in jeopardy, which should be his primary concern. What if it was just a tad bit bigger and it hit your throat harder, or you couldnt reach the toggles? Not pretty. Unfortunatly you learned a lesson about speaking up and taking a stand when you dont feel right in your gear. Instructors make mistakes too so dont just always "go with the flow" if you feel something is not right.

The landing.

If you were under radion control how did you land away from the landing area? Bad spot? High winds? I am not saying that it does not happen, but I would like to hear why you thought you missed the landing area. Most of the time unless the unusual happens, an instructor should get you to the right place if you listen to their commands. The butt slide is not all that bad, but for now you should listen for the flair command until you get a few more jumps and can be sure you know when on your own. A butt slide is not as bad as flairing too late and hitting hard, or too early and stalling it in.

The radio.

I had the same thing happen to me going through AFF. It really didnt bother me because unlike your instructor, mine just gave me a couple commands and didnt babble the whole time. I agree that constant talking would take away from me getting comfy under canopy and being as alert as possible. If he was giving commands thats another thing, but just babbling, I would say distracts you at a time when you need to be most aware. I would just ask your instructor is he could guide you in himself, or ask him who will be doing it, and talk to them about it. No big deal, but if it helps your comfort level a little, by all means do it.

Next level make sure your gear is right for you and have a great time. Its a great sport with a lot of great people. They all make mistakes now and then, so just be sure you are happy with what is going on or say something. As they say, in the end, its your responsibility. If you dont speak up, you are not excercising that right.

Oz

[peregrinerose 0]

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Even the best radio coach cannot tell you exactly when to flare when you land a long way away him/her.
Sounds like you are heads-up under canopy. The sooner you get off radio the better

It wasn't the landing at all or the flare time that bothered me in the least. As I said in my post, that was my responsibility, the coach is a guide, a safety net. That was the lesson that I learned, that I am in control of my jump. Coaches can't do it all nor should they be expected to.

What bothered me is the surprise of having someone I didn't know, never talked to, never saw, had no familiarity with in any way at any time being radio coach. There was absolutely no trust there, he gave me conflicting directions (turn right, no left, 90 degrees, errrr 180, etc, he talked almost constantly which was completely the opposite of my first jump AFF coach who only talked when necessary) Every coach has a different style, but I didn't even get to meet the guy first, so he didn't give me any information on what to expect.

As a student, I want to at least be introduced to my coaches to feel somewhat comfortable with them, not have a holy surprise at 4000 feet.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[peregrinerose 0]

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The landing.

If you were under radion control how did you land away from the landing area? Bad spot? High winds? I am not saying that it does not happen, but I would like to hear why you thought you missed the landing area. Most of the time unless the unusual happens, an instructor should get you to the right place if you listen to their commands. The butt slide is not all that bad, but for now you should listen for the flair command until you get a few more jumps and can be sure you know when on your own. A butt slide is not as bad as flairing too late and hitting hard, or too early and stalling it in.

I don't know why I didn't get there, there was very little wind. this was my second canopy ride, so I followed the coach's instructions as given over radio. Both jumps and all 4 jump coaches that I worked with have complimented my canopy control as well as the first radio coach, so that is not an issue. I still have no clue who the second radio coach is, which really bothers me.

The problem with your recommendation of listening to flare time is that he told me to flare AFTER I had landed. On a 240 canopy at 150 lbs of me weight (what, 20 more with gear?), that's no big deal, but on a smaller rig that would not have been a good thing. Had I flared when my gut told me to a few secs before landing, it would have been a good landing. Again, that was my fault, not the coach's as I was out of his line of sight anyway. My 2 instructors agreed completely that I should have flared when my gut told me to instead of waiting, in fact, they were the ones that told me that.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[AggieDave 6]

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That is the part that I am not happy about. Student rigs, by nature are "fit nobody" rigs. That being said, there should always be one that fits pretty close. Your instructor with the bagillion jumps should know better

Since you're an instructor yourself and have a lot of experience sizing rigs to students, especially smaller students?

Student gear, especially for smaller jumpers (most of the time women) is a hard thing to do. You need to keep them on a size and planeform that lends to typical student and low time jumper flying/flaring errors, however, you need a rig that will still fit them. That's not easy to do, that's why the MLW is adjustable on a lot of student harnesses.

I'm sure the instructor was doing his best to find a happy medium. The fact that she didn't get the exact same rig she jumped before is a way of life for students, sometimes it just doesn't work out.

Due to the price of student gear and upkeep of student gear, its just not practical for most DZs to have a HUGE variaty of sizes to fit that one big guy that does AFF and that one smaller person that does AFF, they have to find a medium and go with it.

There are some tricks a smaller person can do to fit in a harness better, for instance the seatbelt pad on the leg straps works ok. So does wearing jeans under your jumpsuit (jeans that don't inhibit range of movement). Basically something to take up some more room to help fit.

At the end of the day, the biggest thing that Peregrinerose can do is chat with her instructor and possibly the S&TA or head instructor as well with her concerns. I promise they will be adressed, be it with an explaination or a changing of proceedure.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[RyanofOZ 0]

Jen I must have read / misunderstood what happened there. I didnt realize you got the command for flairing after you landed. Sorry about that. In that case, you did a great job dealing with the situation at hand and coming out of it in one piece. Good job. That makes me think the guy on the radio did an even worse job. In a low wind situation with a school bus for a canopy, he should have gotten you very very close to where you were supposed to be. After a few more jumps the radio will be just there in case "shit happens". You did a good job, hopefully your next jumps will go off without a hitch.

Oz

[peregrinerose 0]

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At the end of the day, the biggest thing that Peregrinerose can do is chat with her instructor and possibly the S&TA or head instructor as well with her concerns. I promise they will be adressed, be it with an explaination or a changing of proceedure.

This did happen, they agreed the rig was far too big, given the marks on my neck even with stretching as far as I could, and noted it, as well as recommending a 210 for me (1st jump was a 230). My criticism is not with coaches at all on this one, it was handled appropriately.
Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[RyanofOZ 0]

Since you're an instructor yourself and have a lot of experience sizing rigs to students, especially smaller students?

[peregrinerose 0]

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For gods sake her chin strap welted her throat and she barely reached the toggles.

Just for the record, this welt looks like a really big hickey on the side of my neck. Of course my husband wanted to know who gave it to me when I got home. I told him one of the coaches did (same coach my husband often worked with) But now I'm at work. And I'm a doctor. And I have patients looking at me verrrrrry strangely. And none of my staff believes that it is from skydiving.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[AggieDave 6]

My point is, I'm willing to bet that her instructor (who it seems has been doing this for a while) fit the rig and thought it would work. You're not an instructor so you've never tried to fit a rig to someone. Also, if her leg straps weren't adjusted right, she would sit that low in the harness as well.

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It does not take an instructor to see that was not a good thing. I call that common sense.

Call it what you want, it kinda looks to me like the beginning of a witch hunt...For instance, I'm not an AFF-I, just a TM and a Coach, so if I have problems or questions with whats being done with "my" students (I see them before the AFF-I's do at my DZ, usually), I'll go chat with the instructor in private. Ask him whats going on and why. I've learned a lot that way, a whole lot.

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For gods sake her chin strap welted her throat and she barely reached the toggles.

I'm going to bet that she's going to have some problems reaching the toggles on most student rigs due to the length of the risers.


My overall point is, lets not try to witch hunt the AFF-I, just let the student know that she should bring her concerns first to her instructor, then to the S&TA or head instructor if she doesn't feel like her problems were addressed correctly.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kamih 0]

Peregrinerose,
I did a coach jump yesterday and the exact same thing happened to me. I usually jump a 220, which wasn't available, so I was using a bigger rig with a 240 in it.
It was one of the Javelin containers with the adjustable length on the sides. I was a little worried because I had read the SunPath bulletin and the threads regarding the incidents with these harnesses, but I really trust the riggers at Xkeys so I decided to jump with it anyways (plus I'm very light). The thing is, thinking about all this, I didn't think one second of making sure the length was right for me (and neither did my coach).
It did feel a little loose, especially on the shoulders, but with my very limited experience I didnt worry about it. I knew that I would have to reach further back down to pull though, so that didn't surprise me too much at pull time.
What did surprise me was my chest strap, when it came all the way up to my throat at opening. GULP .
Another lesson learned. No instructor can know how the rig feels on you. If it's too loose, adjust it. If you can't, don't jump it.
Glad you're OK though. And don't worry too much about your landing, it's already very good that you judged it good yourself. Next time you'll trust yourself even more and I'm sure you'll land fine

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[peregrinerose 0]

I'm going to bet that she's going to have some problems reaching the toggles on most student rigs due to the length of the risers.


My overall point is, lets not try to witch hunt the AFF-I, just let the student know that she should bring her concerns first to her instructor, then to the S&TA or head instructor if she doesn't feel like her problems were addressed correctly. ***

First rig I jumped was fine, both from chest strap and toggles stance. I don't want a witch hunt, thought my instructors were great. That is why the flare thing and rig thing were LESSONS LEARNED on my part NOT something I was really concerned about.

My only concern was having no clue who my radio coach was which made me extremely uncomfortable since I got that little surprise at 4000 feetish off the ground and I had no idea at all what his coaching style would be or what to expect of it since no one bothered letting me know there was a change in plan. In a situation like skydiving where there are safety issues, trust in an instructor is important. How can any student trust an instructor that they never met???

My complaint isn't with the flare time either, that wasn't his fault, it was MINE! I was over a little hill from where he was, he was doing the best he could given his standpoint.

This wasn't intended to be a post bashing my instructors at all, I'm very happy and comfortable at this DZ. The only thing I wasn't thrilled with was the change in radio person thing to someone I never met. The other things I thought were good lessons for me to learn, they were MY issues, NOT the instructors'

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[AggieDave 6]

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This wasn't intended to be a post bashing my instructors at all, I'm very happy and comfortable at this DZ.

That's why I was trying to step up and quelch any of those fires.
Have you chatted with your instructors about your concerns yet?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[peregrinerose 0]

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Have you chatted with your instructors about your concerns yet?

I didn't say anything about the radio coach thing. Since I had no idea who was on radio, for all I knew the guy was standing nearby. I don't know how to bring that up tactfully, that I really don't want weird surprises like that while I'm so new at this and trying to spend my mental energy learning.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[AggieDave 6]

If you ask to talk to your instructor in private, I promise he'll do it (as long as you're not asking when he's busy with students). Then bring up your concerns.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[firstime 0]

This entire thread sounds like a rerun of an old movie. My 2nd AFF jump was a thriller. I dumped @
5K and the chest strap was so tight to the bottom of my chin I could'nt look down, I then tried to put my face behind the chest strap just to be able to see
where the fuck I was to no avail. I then grabbed the front risers to lift myself up... perfect.... but I was desending too quick to an unfamiliar area. Now I am waiting for some instruction from the radio???????????????? not a fucking thing. I said "ok self lets do this" left toggle pull the front risers, look
and vice verse and finally had to pick a back yard and it was the best goddam landing I ever had. The guy was in his back yard making burgers and it made his day. I had a least 6 offers for a ride back
but waited for the DZ bus. It turned out that the radio guy forgot I was up there. But I am here to talk about it. I still would like to know what the hell
I did on that landing as I lightly finessed the blades
of grass like I have done this 10,000 times????
Thanks to my instructor Nickie,... an absolute Pro and 2nd to none.

[kelpdiver 2]

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What bothered me is the surprise of having someone I didn't know, never talked to, never saw, had no familiarity with in any way at any time being radio coach. There was absolutely no trust there, he gave me conflicting directions (turn right, no left, 90 degrees, errrr 180, etc, he talked almost constantly which was completely the opposite of my first jump AFF coach who only talked when necessary)

That could easily happen again depending on your place. On my radio jumps, I might have one of my two AFF-Is, it might have been one of the 2 for my buddy, or it could be the DZO at the pickup van. Adding to the fun was that there were two of us up there, and sometimes the voice came in muffled. I pretty quickly shifted to doing what I thought made sense, and following directions when clearly heard. And to ignore the random Spanish speaking chatter that used the same frequency at times.

Might make most sense for you to ask to meet all possibles on the radio.

[sducoach 0]

Just as others are making assumptions here, so are you. As a TM and a Coach you know that a rig that is too big is a no no. The rig moving on the student during freefall can/will cause control issues. The harness not fitting correctly can/will cause opening issues and let us not forget one such person that slipped out through the harness on opening. Being unable to reach the toggles except with the finger tips suggest that the problem on landing was more control range than the radio.

Good advise to have the private talk and MOST instructors will do so, not all. Some are perfect, run their DZ's as such, and will always have an "answer".

Remember my statement, "There are those who try to do it right, and there are those who try to do it and tell you it's right.". The instructor should not have allowed the jump in a rig that is too large. Some times DZO's push and Instructors need to know when to say no also.

If there is anything about you jump that you are uncomfortable about, ask. Do it before the jump.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[skydivingchad 0]

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Being unable to reach the toggles except with the finger tips suggest that the problem on landing was more control range than the radio.

I don't think so on this.... both coaches said that my canopy control was really good, even with the rig as it was. The landing issue was that I didn't trust myself even though I knew I was out of the line of sight of the radio guy. It was my own damn fault, jut not for control issues.

I'm just really glad I was looking up at my chute and not looking down or when the chute opened I would have nailed that chest strap with my throat instead of it just hitting the side of my neck.

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If there is anything about you jump that you are uncomfortable about, ask. Do it before the jump.

I did, once on the ground when getting rigged up, it just felt too big. Then again in the plane I asked because I was concerned about the shoulder straps falling off my shoulders a little bit. Both times told it was normal. I didn't push it. Next time I will be far more assertive if something doesn't sit right in my noggin.

Jen

Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.
Pelt Head #3

[skydivingchad 0]

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That could easily happen again depending on your place. On my radio jumps, I might have one of my two AFF-Is, it might have been one of the 2 for my buddy, or it could be the DZO at the pickup van.

I don't think that was really the case. It was a Thurs evening, I was the only student there. Maybe a total of 15-20 people there at all, 12 of them on my load. (my 2 coaches and a 9 way plus me).

Jen

Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.
Pelt Head #3

[skydivingchad 0]

oops, my husband is logged in. Skydivingchad is my husband. I'm Peregrinerose, sorry for confusion

Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.
Pelt Head #3

[AggieDave 6]

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Just as others are making assumptions here, so are you. As a TM and a Coach you know that a rig that is too big is a no no.

Yeah, I guess you could say that I would like to assume that the AFF-I would do the right thing. Also, that is assumed since we've only heard one side of the story.

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Remember my statement, "There are those who try to do it right, and there are those who try to do it and tell you it's right."

Yeah, I've seen that as well...I think it can be changed, but that's a long discussion for another time (hopefully over a couple beers).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[sducoach 0]

Let me clarify.

If you cannot reach the toggles except with your finger tips, then when you do have the toggles in your hands the canopy will not be in full flight as you have the toggles pulled down further than normal.

In that case you will not have full flight or full range of control movement which may not be apparent during flight at altitude and only become obvious during the flare. Give it some thought and see what you think.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[sducoach 0]

Dave,

Change me brother! Your info is spot on 99.999% of the time!

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8