Floating reserve handle

[packerboy 3]

I had a floating reserve handle today during a sit jump. I felt something hitting me in the chest and looked down and got hit in the chin with my reserve handle.

Immediately I though to grab the handle and dump my main. However as a grabbed my pilot chute I was thinking "Shit.. the opening shock or at least my body movement during opening is going to yank this thing and I'm going to have a 2 out". I opened my main and restowed the handle and landed without any more excitement. The reserve pin had moved a bit, but not much.

My question is.. Has anyone ever had a two out because of this sort of situation? And would anyone suggest just pulling silver if it looks like it is hanging out far?

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[kenneth21441 0]

Packerboy,

I would never recommend pulling the reserve just due to the fact that it has come out of the ripcord pocket.

I have a Vector 3 and normally have to check that is is fully seated before we exit.. as far back in the pocket and the velcro matching.... due to other jumpers sitting so close and other stuff..

It should take approx 22 pounds of force to pull the pins and this factor is also determined by the amount of tension on the reserve pilot chute.. To long of length of cord means less pull force,,while too tight of cord means more pull force is needed...

If it is close to that 22 pounds you should not have anothing to worry about other then pulling the main...but if its over or under that is another issue...

Have your rigger check this if he or she does not check the pull force...to manufactors requirements..

But more overall check your gear before you enter the A/C and before exit....Usually 1 to 2 minutes before exit.....

Hope that this info helps....and this is just my two cents here....

Until then..

Ken,..,

Kenneth Potter
FAA Senior Parachute Rigger
Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA)
FFL Gunsmith

[billvon 2,991]

Yes, we had a jumper who tried to "hang on" to his floating handle through opening and he ended up pulling it. I think that leaving it alone and opening your main at the appropriate altitude is a better idea; the odds that that handle is going to generate enough force to pull the pin by itself is low. If you have time, you might try to restow it, but that's only if it happens _very_ high (i.e. not at breakoff) and only if you can avoid causing a hazard on your own dive.

[slotperfect 7]

This has happened to me a few times, always with military rigs (MT1-XX). Twice I discovered it only after opening, twice I was able to replace it in it's pocket in free fall, and once I just left it alone.

I agree with Bill that leaving it alone and deploying at the proper altitude is better than holding on to it.

Arrive Safely

John

[riggerrob 643]

You made a decision and survived.
GOOD!
I would have done the same thing: deployed my main at a reasonable altitude.
The short term solution is to protect your handles any time anyone moves near you, especially in the airplane.
The long term solution is to ask a Master Rigger to tighten your ripcord pocket.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

I had a floating reserve handle today during a sit jump.

Adding to what others have already advised...

It's difficult to get them back in their pocket in freefall. It can take two hands, and is hard to maintain stable flight that way. I would suggest that the easier thing to do is to just quickly tuck it *behind* the main lift web, wedged between the lift web and your body. That is quick, gets it out of the way so it isn't flopping around, and gives it some support so it won't jerk the cable on opening shock. I've done this several times in just such a situation. Then once under canopy, you can take the time to put it back in it's pocket where it belongs.

The only disclaimer to this is that if you have a malfunction when you open your main, you might have to grope a bit for the handle. So just follow the cable down to get it. But the odds of you needing it on any particular jump are very slim. And in my opinion, those odds make this a worthy option, compared to the odds of other bad things happening from a floppy handle.

I'm not a rigger or an instructor - just a guy who has been jumping rigs with two ripcords for 25 years. I've encountered this situation numerous times. The last time was just a few weeks ago, when a friend saw something silver flashing around under my armpit, and with big eyes, started pointing at my back - scaring the shit out of me. Once I figured out what it was, it wasn't a big deal; Oh yeah, tuck it in, don't worry about it, keep on skydiving.

[FrogNog 1]

The force on the ripcord will be the mass of the hanging part of the ripcord and handle multiplied by the acceleration.

E.g. if the handle and cable together weigh 1/2 pound[1] and peak opening acceleration is 5 Gs, the pulling force would be 2.5 pounds. Other examples are left as an exercise to the reader.

Anybody know how much a hollow steel tubing ripcord handle, about 24" of 3 mm steel cable, and a swaged terminal for that cable weighs (masses)?

Anybody else know what average peak canopy opening acceleration is?

Footnote:
[1] technically, pounds are weight, not mass. When I say "together weigh 1/2 pound" I mean "together mass ~1/64 slugs" or "together weigh 1/2 pound at 1 gravity". We can safely ignore this.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[krkeenan 0]

Quote

The force on the ripcord will be the mass of the hanging part of the ripcord and handle multiplied by the acceleration.

Since you are approaching this so technically, it should be noted that the system is more complex. Only that part of the ripcord assy. hanging "down" will be accellerated in a direction that will try to pull the pin. If you are oriented "feet-to-earth" during most of the accelleration, then the part of the ripcord that goes over your shoulder and down to the pin will be pulled down, counteracting the force from the handle end. Of course, there is much less mass on the end without the handle. Then, there's the section that actually passes over the shoulder. that part will be accellerated down against the inside of the housing, causing more drag against any movement. The whole system works in accord with F=ma, but all the different directions make it complicated.

Time to call J. Kallend...

kevin

======================
Seasons don't fear the Reaper,
nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain...

[DiveMaker 0]

Quote

I had a floating reserve handle today during a sit jump. I felt something hitting me in the chest and looked down and got hit in the chin with my reserve handle.

Immediately I though to grab the handle and dump my main. However as a grabbed my pilot chute I was thinking "Shit.. the opening shock or at least my body movement during opening is going to yank this thing and I'm going to have a 2 out". I opened my main and restowed the handle and landed without any more excitement. The reserve pin had moved a bit, but not much.

My question is.. Has anyone ever had a two out because of this sort of situation? And would anyone suggest just pulling silver if it looks like it is hanging out far?

recap from these posts:

http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1114420;#1114420
http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1114801;#1114801
http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1115287;#1115287


Tucking the handle under the harness is a really bad idea.
It will be MUCH harder to find the handle if you need it after discovering that you have a main malfunction.

A friend of mine had a floater that was under the harness. The reserve cable ran under his armpit with the handle floating above him.
He dumped his main and had a malfunction. He cutaway. He tried to pull the reserve by getting the cable where it comes out of the housing.
He spent the rest of his life doing that except for a turn to the west to watch a beautiful Coolidge sunset.

The kicker to this story was that the folks on the jump told him about the floater. He decided to ignore it and continue with the RW. I am pretty sure he thought that the odds of him needing his reserve on that jump were small.
I do not recommend ignoring a floater.

Most people cannot get the handle back in the pocket.
I did one time, but that was a Martin Baker handle with an elastic pocket.
Most of the velcro sandwich pockets today make it very hard to replace the handle in real time.

Don't get caught up in this - Pull at the appropriate altitude.

Most jumpers have deployed the main and reseated the reserve handle once under a good canopy and checking for traffic.

You can also try to hold the harness and handle together as you deploy your main. This will reduce the chance that the flailing handle would pull the reserve pin out during opening shock of the main.

Some jumpers might go head down a bit when holding the MLW, but it is possible to put one hand on your MLW and pull without going head down.
Nowadays, this is a tunnel exercise. One hand on your back, both hands on your back. etc

A slightly head-down position for deployment under this scenario would be little more than a slight inconvenience.

The best way to tell some on else they have a floater is to:
1. get their attention
2. point to your reserve handle
3. point to their reserve handle.

Then stay out of their way - Do not stay directly in front of them (like an RW 2-way) because if they pull, you will eat their feet.

The statement of 'tucking it behind the MLW' suggests stashing the handle between a jumper's body and a harness that under some conditions would be taut enough to hold the handle in place.

Some jumpers might think chest strap - that's pretty taut for most during freefall.

Some jumpers might think MLW - about where the RC pocket is. That is taut for some jumpers. Of course, if you had a large chest, there is always a gap between the harness and body, except for where the harness draws across the maximum girth of the chest. Specifically, I can say that large chested women have a gap between the MLW where the RC pocket is and their torso. The handle would NOT be held in place there under any conditions.

The big disadvantage is that even for the jumpers that have the harness tight against their torso or chest will experience slack once the main opens. The handle falls. If the handle is under the MLW, it could fall back under the armpit if they have to cutaway and pull the reserve. If the handle is under the chest strap, they end up with a cable wrap around the chest strap.

If you or anyone else does not understand the potential problem with this, I'd be happy to show you at the DZ. Just ask. You can decide for yourself, which idea is better or has more potential problems.

Say someone tucks the handle under the chest strap. Then they deploy the main, the handle falls thru during opening. Oops - now they have a malfunction and cutaway. Then they go for the reserve handle. But wait - the cable is wrapped around the chest strap. The handle won't budge. Too much friction between that S-wrap the cable has around the harness. Now, you are back trying to grab the cable as it comes out of the housing. The cable may be tightly pressed against the harness. If you have gloves on, add in a greater difficulty level. If the cable is routed around the harness (MLW or chest strap), that will be a much harder task than looping hands around a cable freely floating about (not wrapped around the harness), pulling until the handle slips into your hands.

Floaters happened quite often many years ago when almost all rigs had elastic pockets. It was relatively easy to loops thumbs and fingers around the cable as it exited the housing and pull.

The suggested technique of 'tucking the handle under the harness' adds to the difficulty in pulling the reserve because a reserve cable that is wrapped around the harness will be harder to grab and pull.

The odds of a freely floating reserve handle pulling the pin during main deployment are slim. You'd have to have one hell of a hard opening and a rather long excess cable length to generate typical reserve pull forces.

You have to provide options to jumpers that may experience this. Your options complicate reserve pulls, if they are required. But I suppose that some new-age jumpers won't worry too much about that because they have an RSL and CYPRES to back them up. I prefer to be able to pull the reserve directly.

For Floaters in general: you are not supposed to try and catch the handle in mid-air as it flops about. You are supposed to loop your hands around the cable and pull. The handle will come into your hands as you run down the cable. If the cable is routed around the harness, then this may not happen. Then you end up trying to pull the pin with pressure on the cable. That's a bit harder that using a handle to pull with.

Other handle types:
TK Donle told me RWS makes all 3 types of handles & it's up to the jumper to 'choose his poison'. No handle type is superior in all situations.

JumpShack only TSOs metal handles for Racers.

Gloves:
Gloves definitely enter into consideration here. Each jumper should determine that they could get the reserve cable with their gloves on. If you follow Bill's advice and have that cable wrapped around the harness, then this is a significant issue.

End of Housing: Make sure the end of the cutaway and reserve housings are properly tacked down.


.

DiveMaker

[FrogNog 1]

Quote

Quote

The force on the ripcord will be the mass of the hanging part of the ripcord and handle multiplied by the acceleration.

Since you are approaching this so technically, it should be noted that the system is more complex.

My point was to consider a subset of the parts of the system that would work to cause the undesired outcome (reserve deployment), while ignoring the parts that would work against it, and show that the simplified theory still suggests it was unlikely. The "slop" in my methodology would function as a safety margin.

Of course, the gear will defy theory. It loves to do that. If my reserve handle were loose, it would probably hook itself on my belt buckle and pull during opening shock (because the best time to have a reserve come out unexpectedly if while the main is still inflating).

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[packerboy 3]

I was thinking more along the lines of something snagging it (my arms or hands) when I asked the question. The physics are obvious about it not pulling itself upon opening, but I'll be honest they weren't obvious when I was at 4.5G looking down at something I had never experienced before in freefall. Somehow the physics equations escaped me at the time.

As for tucking it under something... I couldn't really even grab the handle itself, I more or less crossed my arm over the whole situation tight to my chest and reached back to pull in a slight HD position. I probably wasted about 500-750 ft trying to restow it, because the velcro sammich in the MLW was almost to taut (sp?) to peel apart.

How it happened? I check my handles when I put the rig on, after I release my setbelt, after I turn around in our tiny plane, and immediately before exit. I was exiting as the back of a 2 way train and I usually rush the count from the back so I can push the other person out as opposed to being dragged. This time I think the person in the front lagged a bit after the count causing some chest to back contact as we were leaving the plane. The other jumper didn't notice it in freefall though.

Thanks for the thoughts... I think if it happens again, I won't even try to hang on to it or protect it.. just go main as per normal. This would lessen the chance of me inadvertantly pulling it myself.

By the way... my buddy had a mal the same day, first one in 4700 jumps - 15 years.. anybody know the record?

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

I had my reserve handle stripped on an RW exit one time where we were pulling a 6-chunk or something like that. The person that did it, did it by mistake and he was an experienced skydiver, so no blood, no foul. Anyway, my reserve handle was out if its pocket, but my reserve didn't get dumped... neat trick, huh? Which was a good thing, because I was front float on that afore mentioned 6-way exit. Any... Anyway, I went the whole skydive oblvious to it until after breakoff, track, pull... as my main sat me up... of course here comes this reserve handle floating up in front of me! NOW I know what everyone was pointing about during that dive... DOH! Anyhow, as I recall, I trapped it against myself at that point, looked over my right shoulder to make sure my reserve wasn't coming out too... would have choped my main if it were, but it wasn't... and then carefully put my reserve handle back in its pocket. Gently flew my main back to an uneventful landing. Made sure the reserve pin wasn't disturbed before then next jump, which it hadn't been. Hey, I'd rather be lucky then good any day!