security regulations in Russia

[soniared 0]

Dear Skydivers!
I need some good expert advice.
i am going on a trip to russia, and i always dreamt of starting skydiving.
I thought maybe there would be a great way to start (great = cheapter). However, i am a bit afraid regarding their safety regulations, how can i find out about those?
Thank you,
Sonia

[skydiverton 0]

You get what you pay for.

Start jumping in the US or Western europe.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[mr2mk1g 10]

What country do you live in?

[soniared 0]

I am from Ottawa, Canada

[soniared 0]

Yes, that would be the old rule to follow. However...

I also saw on the web site advertisement for jumping in Prague:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/calendar/display.cgi?action=detail&EventNumber=12117

It happens, that i will be in Prague between those days. What would you suggest?

[AndyMan 7]

There's a really good skydiving operation down in Gananoque. You've got no excuse not to check them out.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[skydiverton 0]

Quote

Yes, that would be the old rule to follow. However...

I also saw on the web site advertisement for jumping in Prague:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/calendar/display.cgi?action=detail&EventNumber=12117

It happens, that i will be in Prague between those days. What would you suggest?

Do your initial training in the US/CANADA or western europe. It is best to do the training in the country you live in. I do not know whether a foreign AFF-graduation is accepted in Canada.
For example a german with a foreign AFF-graduation is not recognized in Germany. The person has to do a graduation re-jump. Prague is in the former communist-eastern-europe. Even in Wetsren-europe we have sometimes problems with those licenses (Prague is only 8hours drive for me)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[DancingFlame 0]

It won't be cheaper to learn skydiving in Russia. AFF costs here about US$900-1000.
Regular jumps cost less ($10 per ticket).

Safety regulations are the same as in other countries. At least, at Kolomna and Stupino. I would not recommend another DZs here in Russia. These two are the best.

[tombuch 0]

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I am from Ottawa, Canada

I strongly suggest you do your student training in Canada. The Canadian Sport Parachute Association has a solid program in place, and a great reputation. Any CSPA affiliated drop zone should be fine. Check out their web site at http://www.cspa.ca/. You will find a link on the left side to "Member Groups" that will list all the affiliated drop zones in Canada.

If you do your training in Russia there is no telling what you might get in terms of safety or skill level training, and Russian training may not be accepted by local drop zones in Canada.

For more information about student training programs, check out a book I wrote for McGraw-Hill called JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy. It is primarily written for the United States domestic market, but much of the material applies to Canada as well. You may find it in Candian book stores, or through on-line retailers like Amazon.com.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[par 0]

Quote

You get what you pay for.

Start jumping in the US or Western europe.

I don't think that price always means safety. There are some great dz's in russia too.

[mr2mk1g 10]

If what dancingflame said is right, there is absolutely no financial benefit to be had by doing AFF out there. If you were trained when you got there however (ie had done AFF already in canada) you could very well do a great deal of jumps for cheap, as post qualification jumps really are a lot cheaper.

[riggerrob 643]

Granted, learning how to skydive in Canada will be more expensive, but you will get a much higher quality of instruction.

Why do you think the Australians and Americans modelled their instructional programs after methods developed by the Canadian Sports Parachuting Association and Coaching Association of Canada?

Why do you think the former chair of CSPA's Coaching Committee now heads Skydive University?

Try calling skydiving schools in Arnprior, Alexandria and Gananoque, Ontario.

[Push 0]

I'm a Canadian skydiver trained in Canada. I'm Russian born, so I understand you. However, remember the "business soul" in Russia. I would trust my life to them only if I knew them personally. That does not mean there aren't good DZs with good people, it's just that Russians know the reputation of Russian businessmen better than anyone I think.

Check out Gananoque. I've met skydivers from there and they're great people. I heard about a dropzone north (?) of Montreal that has an absolutely excellent first jump and student training program, I'm sorry but I can't remember the name. It's pretty hard to go wrong with student training in Canada. Train here, then come visit me

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Granted, learning how to skydive in Canada will be more expensive, but you will get a much higher quality of instruction.

Everyone seems to be writing off these Russian DZs. It's clear he'd be better off doing it at home, but I don't see how you can conclude he'd get a "much higher quality of instruction" by doing so. It's not like the Russians don't know anything about flight, or space.

[Push 0]

Russians have very solid RW competition teams, and I heard there are people who make excellent gear in Russia. If you go to the right dropzone, I'm sure you would get excellent service.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[soniared 0]

Push,
Someone from skydive.ru gave me the following links:

www.georgiajump.ru
skydive.samara.org

What do you think?
And if you think it is secure, which jump should i choose for the first one?
If you take a look, they have static-line, classic jump..etc..
Thank you for your help.

[Mad47 0]

I rarely argue with experienced people like you are but this statement is simply not correct. The biggest Russian dropzones have raised several generations of world champions in variety of skydiving disciplines which rules out the concerns about the quality of teaching and training.
However, one should consider the following factors:
1) Language – it is important to be able to understand your instructor during first jump curse
2) Diversity – there are small old stile DZ’s with old SL training methods and round canopies.
3) Cultural issues (related to 1) - I am not sure it is a great idea to deal with both cultural shock (adjusting to new country and new environment) and pressure of AFF training.

If you think you will be able to deal with these issues, then you can seriously consider going because the difference in price is significant.

P.S: I am Russian who went through the AFF in Texas and one of my first instructors was Canadian girl who speaks with strong French accent.

[Mad47 0]

Kolonma and Stupino near Moscow are places to consider.

[Push 0]

Please remember that I am only a beginner in this sport, and may be wrong about what I am saying here. Would the highly experienced, especially riggers (riggerrob), verify my words please?

Georgia Jump:

These guys say that their gear has been made in the USA, which would make it fine. I can't tell if they're AAD equipped, but they suggest so.

The "klassicheskii prizhek" course uses a round. Avoid rounds, rounds are not good. As I understand, in Russia they believe that rounds are better for lower time skydivers because you can't hook turn with them. You also can't very well steer with them, and can't land very softly with them. You may less likely to kill yourself on landing with a round, but you are more likely to sprain/break things because of harder landings, and you are more likely to land on things you don't want to land on, like trees and powerlines. Don't jump with rounds. A more experienced jumper may be more enlightening, as I have never myself jumped a round parachute.

The tandem jump looks perfect, they use Strong parachute systems if I'm telling correctly from their photograph. These are excellent equipment that we use here in Canada, as well as in the States. Not my personal preference, but they definitely work. Here's a link to the picture from which I deduced that the rig is a Strong: http://www.georgiajump.ru/Photo/0044.jpg

The static line course is how I trained. It's probably very different in Russia, but the system they use at least has square parachutes in it, which is a bonus. It's very difficult to tell just by looking at the webpage. I would call them perhaps, if you have someone who knows the right questions to ask. More importantly, you need someone who knows what the right answers to those questions are. We could help you here if you want, but it's gonna be tough over the internet.

AFF: I'm not sure whether this is a USPA certified AFF program, but again they seem to be ok. I have the same thing to say about this as about the static line. Their description of it in "Dalneyshee obuchenie" sounds like an American style AFF program. I would recommend you do this after a tandem jump if you want to be fully certified in this club.

skydive.samara.org:

More difficult to tell. They seem to do tandem jumps with Vectors. Perhaps they mean Sigmas, since the Sigma is a tandem parachute system made by Relative Workshop, and Vector is a sport parachute container made by the same company. However, it is possible that this Vector is a Russian homemade system, I can't tell. Even so, it's probably fine.

These people don't appear to specialize in parachute jumps, but their history as an aviation club is impressive. I don't know what to say about them, not enough information.

Edited to add: Their FAQ says that everything except the tandem systems is definitely Russian. The "uchebno trenirovochnii parashut" D-1-5U, if I remember correctly (and I may be wrong here), is a round canopy. I am not familiar with any of this equipment. It does not appear to be American or European. It's probably fine anyway, it just means that we don't know anything about it.

On a final note, I don't read the Russian skydiving webpages. I think that there is a Russian page similar to dropzone.com, with forums and fatality reports. I don't read it because I don't live there. If you look through it you might find more informed opinions.

Basically, I'm not sure what to say. Both seem fine, Georgia Jump has a bit more information on their page, and they seem to do AFF, so I would recommend them, but that's only because they have a better webpage...

Again I plea that experienced jumpers verify everything I said.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[skybytch 273]

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These guys say that their gear has been made in the USA, which would make it fine.

People and companies in countries other than the US build perfectly good skydiving equipment. Just because something is made in the US does not make it better or safer than something made anyplace else.

[Push 0]

I believe I have made that point in several places in my post. If I did not emphasize that enough, let me say so again here. There are people who swear by Russian equipment. However, it's possible that a lot of it is military surplus. We don't know.

Edited to add: I would jump a Russian built rig, main and reserve, as long as none of them are round and the rig has all the modern features (3 rings and modern reserve activation methods especially). I would not jump an American or European built rig that has round canopies (except on special preplanned occasions) or does not have the features listed above.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[tombuch 0]

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More difficult to tell. They seem to do tandem jumps with Vectors. Perhaps they mean Sigmas, since the Sigma is a tandem parachute system made by Relative Workshop, and Vector is a sport parachute container made by the same company. However, it is possible that this Vector is a Russian homemade system, I can't tell. Even so, it's probably fine.

The original RWS tandem system was called the Vector, just like the sport rig. The Sigma is the newest model from RWS, and it sets the standard in the industry. The Vector tandem is good, but the Sigma is way, way, way better.

Look, it sounds like this person is going to make her jump in Russia and is fishing for reasons to say that's OK.

It just doesn't make sense to mess with an unknown and potentially unregulated system, and take training from people you don't know and can't adequately evaluate. It might work out fine, but you will get better value and comfort dealing with a Canadian program.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[NWPoul 1]

Hi Sonia,
I' am recently finished the AFF program at Kasimovo DZ (St. Petersburg), and I do believe, that quality of education was perfect =), gear we used - javelin student/PD Navigator Main/PD reserve/Cypress 2 Student gear (now we have five systems), but I have to agree with DansingFlame: DZ Kolomna seems to be the best for You.
Regarding

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I do not know whether a foreign AFF-graduation is accepted in Canada

As soon as the jumps at Russian DZ's cheaper - you can pass an AFF program and progressive AFF -8 program to get the International A class - license.
Regarding "Classichesky pryjok" - forget about it - it takes to much time =).
But how much cost AFF - program in Canada?
Is the deference significant enough to compensate cost of tickets and live in Russia?

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[DancingFlame 0]

Yes, there is no financial benefit. I would recommend to do AFF somewhere else. When one have 100+ jumps and is not afraid of making 8-10 jumps per day, he/she should visit Kolomna and make 100+ jumps in two weeks saving up to $1000

[DancingFlame 0]

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but you will get a much higher quality of instruction.

If you know Russian language, you'll get a highest possible quality of instruction at Kolomna or Stoopino. If you don't, I strongly do not recommend to do AFF in Russia. Language barrier, you know...

Last weekend I found out interesting thing. Foreign jumpers at the Kolomna... are the MOST UNSAFE there! Every day I heard S&TA screaming 'WHAT THE #### ARE YOU DOING THERE!!!' on some 'skygods' breaking all landing patterns, landing across the windblades, doing the most stupid things I've ever seen there. Who pulls low? German skydivers... they pull at 2500 feet!
It is a rule in Kolomna: pull at 1000 meters (3100ft) or a bit higher, - it means, at 800 meters (2500 feet) you MUST be under your fully inflated canopy!
Another rule: follow the landing pattern! as big red arrow points! DO NOT look on the windsock, do not break landings of you teammates !
One more rule: do not fly above the DZ buildings! (only tandems and instructors are allowed to fly there).
One more: if you are not going to do a swoop landing, DO NOT land on a swoop lane! Do not land close to 'beer line'. 'Beer line' is a large white line dividing the landing area into two parts: one small for instructors and tandems, one LARGE for regular jumpers. Anyone who is not an instructor but lands on smaller part, buys a case of beer.

Who breaks all the rules? Right, foreign jumpers. I can't understand, WHY? Is it too difficult to follow those simple rules? There are so much talks about safety on this forum! Sorry for my rude words, just can't hold my tongue where it should be

This summer our S&TA made two cards: yellow and red. Before, there were no need in them.
Now, there is. Yellow card means that jumper will be grounded for some time. Red card means that jumper will be grounded for this day and possibly for some more day.