Problem with landing

[McDragon 0]

Hi

I turn to this forum as I have so far been not very lucky with my recent landing and my knees are hurting quite a lot.

I have 71 jumps. At 61 jumps I switched from using student canopies like Skymaster and Manta to using a Cayenne (by Performance Variable) 170. It is a bit little for my weight (85 kg) but it was very good in the air until I had to land. Apparently it is very different to land this semi-elliptical than a Manta (duh). But I didn't think I would have this much problems.

So far I have made 10 jumps with it and only one (7th) was on foot, all the others ended-up with me either rolling like a football or skidding and hitting my right knee.

The one when I landed OK, I do remember having a little wind to help me, all the others were mostly w/o any wind. My colleagues warned me that I didn't brake completely although I always thought I pulled the toggles to the max. Instead of steadying my hight on landing (I think this is called flare) I still keep on getting towards the ground. Instead of stopping I hit the ground pretty fast. Not nice!

Is this the problem, should I make another loop of the command line round my hand to brake more extensively (I know this is not good practice).

I hope you can give my some pointers, I was told that these (fast) canopies can be landed cross-wind and do not need head-on wind to land nicely.

Please help :-)

Martin

[gofast_ER 0]

next time you jump it check to see if their is a lot of slack in your controll lines. Maybe the toggles need to be raised up a little. If that isnt the problem maybe you need to go to a bigger canopy for a while. Thats just my thoughts

I may not agree with what you have to say but i'll defend to the death your right to say it.

[phoenixlpr 0]

???

What is your weight?

Hybrid/ZP canopies plane out over WL 0.9/1.0+.

You should learn how to execute a 2 stage flare.

Stage1: take canopy out from normal flight to leveled flight onver the ground.

Stage2: Keep it flying over the ground as long you have forward speed.

If you put your feet too early to the ground you are rolling, bouncing...

Ask help from some local experienced skydiver who is jumping some small <170sqft canopy.

[wildfan75 1]

I totally feel your pain, both mental and physical. Get someone at your dropzone to go over the two stage flare. I just switched from the manta to a Silhoette 190 about six jumps ago, and they totally land differently. After my two jumps on Saturday (it's never good when you land, get up and hear someone yell, "Oh my God, she's okay! I totally thought she broke her femur on that one!"). Ended up having an extensive conversation with my S&TA about two staged landings on Sunday morning and landings were MUCH better (on feet!!).

[tdog 0]

Try having someone video tape your landings...

Then show it to someone you trust to coach you...

Or, video other people who are great canopy pilots and compare your videos... What are they doing differently, what are they doing the same, with the flare?

You may see your flare timing is off....

Also look at the steering lines... When you are at full flight before the flare, how much slack is in the brake lines - do you already have some deflection on the tail of the canopy?

I had a string of bad landings - and I was flaring too low... I just needed to see it...

[jerry81 10]

McDragon;
talk to George. Or you can drop me a pm and we can cover some of the basics of flying and landing a canopy like that. Getting video for analysis can help as well.

---

[billvon 3,049]

>but it was very good in the air until I had to land.

Well, most all smaller canopies seem great in the air, and only give you problems on landing.

>should I make another loop of the command line round my hand to brake more extensively . . .

Most likely no. At 1.1 to 1, it is _extremely_ unlikely that you are not able to bottom out the flare (unless the parachute is seriously mistrimmed.) Indeed, doing that may hard-stall the canopy, which can be ugly.

One possibility is that the flare is coming lower than you expect. I haven't jumped a Cayenne, but many people are caught unawares by the much-lower flare point of the Icarus line of canopies. If this is the issue you have to speed up the inital part of the flare and slow down the later part of the flare.

>I was told that these (fast) canopies can be landed cross-wind
>and do not need head-on wind to land nicely.

They can be, but . . .

Don't take this the wrong way, but the time to ask those questions is _before_ you get a canopy like that. It's like starting to skydive, making 50 jumps, then saying "I was told I have a reserve in this rig if there's a problem with the main; I'll ask about how to use it." It's something you have to know how to do before you need to do it.

In your case, yes, canopies at that loading can be landed crosswind. Indeed, some of us find it fun to land smaller canopies crosswind and downwind. It is even easier to land a Skymaster crosswind, though, and that's a better canopy to do it under for the first time. The biggest problem will be that you will 'reach out' for the ground with your downwind hand, and that will turn you downwind. What you really should be doing is turning upwind during the flare with a flare turn - but again they're hard to learn on more heavily loaded canopies.

If you want to keep this canopy, I'd suggest making very small improvements at a time. You have to get the flare down first, and that may just take practice. You should also practice landing not quite into the wind (10 or 20 degrees off) and practice NOT reaching out. Then practice turning back into the wind during the flare. If you can do this, you will have solved the most common problem newer jumpers have during the flare (loss of control once the flare starts.)

[StreetScooby 5]

Do you know where your stall point is? Find this up high, just after deployment, then flare to just before the stall point on landing.

We are all engines of karma

[Hooknswoop 19]

Try this:

Stand at the top of a flight of stairs.

Think; 'Arms all the way up, lean foward against chest strap, take a deep breath'

With a coach watching, walk down the flight of stairs quickly.

Begin to 'flare' at about 10 feet off the 'ground'

Finish the flare a the last step, not before and not after.

Do this several times.

Remember, flaring is like stopping a vehicle at a stop sign. There are many variables that determine when you begin to apply pressure to the brake pedal and how much so that you stop at the stop sign. Landing a canopy is the same thing, flare as necessary to stop as you reach the ground.

It is amazing how many people with have either not finished their 'flare' and are standing at the base of the stairs, or have finished their 'flare' and are 8 or 9 steps up off the ground. You will look silly doing this drill, but if it is silly, but it works, it isn't silly.

Derek

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

I have 71 jumps. At 61 jumps I switched from using student canopies like Skymaster and Manta to using a Cayenne (by Performance Variable) 170. It is a bit little for my weight (85 kg) but it was very good in the air until I had to land.

Your 85kg will make about 213lbs of exit weight, which results in 1.25 wingloading on this Cayenne 170. Are you sure you can jump it safely? Did you get through downsize progression according to SIM 6.10? What about a canopy control course? Could you do everything described in Bill von Novak "Downsizing checklist"?

Just an example of what may happen: last Sunday had to land off-field because of far spot. Chosen a nice, large field, prepared to land. Then two things happened: the wind direction and speed changed dramatically at something like 150 feet (probably because of a line of trees nearby), and suddenly there was a hard-to-see fence across the middle of field. The only thing that saved my ass was a flat turn at 90ft, thanks I was practicing it for the whole jump day. Nevertheless landed cross-wind and could not flare well, so hit the ground and did PLF.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[popsjumper 2]

George...the guy may have never heard of the SIM. Granted, a few Slovenians have, though.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...
Remember, flaring is like stopping a vehicle at a stop sign. There are many variables that determine when you begin to apply pressure to the brake pedal and how much so that you stop at the stop sign. Landing a canopy is the same thing, flare as necessary to stop as you reach the ground.

Thanks Derek...I've heard this called "flying the canopy all the way to the ground" and it's the best simile I've heard that actually relates to the dynamic process of flaring for landing.

The old "stab the brakes at XX feet" directions hurt a lot of people until they figure out the dynamics of landing.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DSE 5]

Quote

Try this:

Stand at the top of a flight of stairs.

Think; 'Arms all the way up, lean foward against chest strap, take a deep breath'

With a coach watching, walk down the flight of stairs quickly.

Begin to 'flare' at about 10 feet off the 'ground'

Finish the flare a the last step, not before and not after.

Do this several times.

Remember, flaring is like stopping a vehicle at a stop sign. There are many variables that determine when you begin to apply pressure to the brake pedal and how much so that you stop at the stop sign. Landing a canopy is the same thing, flare as necessary to stop as you reach the ground.

It is amazing how many people with have either not finished their 'flare' and are standing at the base of the stairs, or have finished their 'flare' and are 8 or 9 steps up off the ground. You will look silly doing this drill, but if it is silly, but it works, it isn't silly.

Derek

Someone (you?) posted a variation of this a while back. I worked on it late at night in a closed shopping mall. Other than the guards thinking I was really strange, it really helped me make a difference overnight. Thanks for the analogy, it's a fine one!

[Cloudi 0]

Is 85kg your exit weight (donned in gear) or your body weight before gear?

If it's your body weight before gear, sounds like your wingloading on that canopy type at your experience level might be a bit much?

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[Cloudi 0]

Oops, just saw your post where you asked the same thing.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[skyblu3 0]

I went through exactly the same thing when I had about the same number of jumps you have. My jumpsuit was covered head to toe in grass stains.

I can give you two tips. First, like the others said find the stall point of your canopy. Sometimes pulling the toggles all the way down stalls the canopy and drops you to the ground. When you are up high pull the toggles and see how far you can pull them down until your canopy stalls. You will know when you stall as you will start to fall backwards and the canopy will lose its shape. Once you find the stall point remember it so when you are landing you never flare past the stall point.

Secondly, don't put your feet down on the ground. Like you I was used to jumping student canopies and a PD 170 F-111 canopy until I had about 90 jumps. These canopies continue descending even through the flare. Flaring slows the descent rate so you can have a soft landing. With a ZP canopy the parachute will level out when you start to flare. For this reason as you pull down the toggles raise your feet in front of you before putting them on the ground.