nael 0 #1 July 23, 2004 I bought a rig from a guy at my dz with a 150 reserve in it. There's now a problem with fitting the reserve and the cypres in the container (it didnt have a cypres), and the guy wants to swap my 150 reserve for a 140 to fit it in. I'd have a wingloading of about 1:1 on the 140. He's telling me it's fine, but I'm not happy with having a reserve that small for my first rig, when I'm used to jumping 240's (I'm still on student gear now, but the main I have bought is a 170). I've had a few experienced jumpers telling me I'd be fine under a 140, but the way I see it - it'd be my first reserve ride, chances are I'm going to be shaken up anyway, so I dont need to be flying something smaller than anything I've ever flown before aswell! Am I over reacting? Am I just being paranoid?www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #2 July 23, 2004 You probably would be just fine under that 140, but you should jump what you feel comfortable jumping. It's your butt that's gonna be hangin' under it. If 10 more sq ft makes you more confident in your ability to land your reserve safely if you have to use it on your next jump - then you should stick with a 150. Back out of the deal if you have to - there are other used rigs out there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nael 0 #3 July 23, 2004 Is a 140 that different to a 150? I assumed it was, but you made it sound like it would be much the same. Maybe I am over reacting.www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d604 0 #4 July 23, 2004 What type 140 and 150? How many jumps on the 140? Sean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #5 July 23, 2004 I would not recommend a student to jump a 140reserve. You will be stresses when you have to fly the canopy. For yourself are you confident you can land the canopy safely in an unknown area? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nael 0 #6 July 23, 2004 QuoteWhat type 140 and 150? How many jumps on the 140? Sean The 150 is a Micro Raven and has 2 jumps, the 140 is an Airforce and has 0.www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #7 July 23, 2004 I'm a bit confused. Your profile says you currently have a 150 reserve loaded at .88, and a 170 main loaded at .78. The math suggests you weigh 132 pounds. Your post asks about a 140 reserve loaded at 1.1, and that would make you 154 pounds. It doesn't really matter if we use pounds, stone, or Kilos, the math doesn't work out for the wing loading on the new reserve. Are you using your weight plus the weight of the rig (about 25 pounds) for all your calculations, as you should be? If your actual weight without gear is 132ish, then a 140 reserve should be alright, although I would still preference the 150, but above either I would encourage the Cypres.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fundgh 0 #8 July 23, 2004 When you calculate the wing loading on a reserve, do you subtract the weight of the main, because often it is not there?...FUN FOR ALL! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #9 July 23, 2004 Worst case scenario is with the main, so keep it in the calculation. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
larsrulz 0 #10 July 23, 2004 QuoteYour post asks about a 140 reserve loaded at 1.1, and that would make you 154 pounds. He says 140 at 1:1. QuoteAre you using your weight plus the weight of the rig (about 25 pounds) for all your calculations, as you should be? I was under the belief that WL calculations needn't include the weight of the single canopy above ones head. So under the reserve include the weight of the main (incase of a cypres fire or low alt. emergency exit) but not the reserve. I assume this is how it should be done, yes? Only seems logical to me. I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #11 July 23, 2004 Nope - include the weight of canopy you're suspended under too. It has to suspend it's own weight too... a wing on it's own has a wing loading of whatever it's own weight is.... it the canopy was made of steel you'd want to factor it's weight into how it flew wouldnt you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #12 July 23, 2004 If the canopy was made of steel, I would jump out of it. Wait, I do. It's _probable_ that we should count the weight of the canopies into the wingloading numbers. It's practical to just hop on the scale and call it good, and this errs on the side of caution. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #13 July 23, 2004 QuoteI was under the belief that WL calculations needn't include the weight of the single canopy above ones head. So under the reserve include the weight of the main (incase of a cypres fire or low alt. emergency exit) but not the reserve. I assume this is how it should be done, yes? Only seems logical to me. USPA defines wing loading as: "...the jumpers exit weight divided by the area of the parachute canopy, expressed in the United States in pounds per square foot." You can find that in the 2004 SIM on page 141, and also in the glossary. PD uses the same basic definition, on their web site at http://performancedesigns.com/docs/wingload.pdf as follows: "Wing loading is a measurement of how much total weight is supported by how large a wing, and is usually expressed in pounds per square foot. Everything the jumper exits with, including all clothing, the rig and both canopies must be included in the weight."Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #14 July 23, 2004 QuoteIt's _probable_ that we should count the weight of the canopies into the wingloading numbers. It's practical to just hop on the scale and call it good, and this errs on the side of caution. Not sure what you mean by that. Weighing yourself WITH GEAR ON is the best way to do it. Weighing yourself with gear off and estimating the weight of your gear is good enough. Not taking into account the weight of your gear is not good enough and doesn't err on the side of caution at all. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #15 July 23, 2004 >I was under the belief that WL calculations needn't include the weight of >the single canopy above ones head. Nope. Include it. The canopy must generate enough lift to balance the weight of the system, and that system includes the canopy itself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #16 July 23, 2004 When calculating my reserve wingloading, I subtract the weight of my main, 'cause dude I'm chopping that biotch. Perhaps you could arrange to jump a 140 reserve packed in a main container for one or two jumps to see what you think. It's a bit of work, but it's a lot of peace of mind. I agree with Tom that it's better to lose 10 sq ft to have the AAD. 1:1 wing loading is usually okay on a reserve. I applaud your caution, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nullified 0 #17 July 23, 2004 QuoteWhen calculating my reserve wingloading, I subtract the weight of my main, 'cause dude I'm chopping that biotch. Unless for several possible reasons your main doesn't lift out of the container. Stay safe, Mike If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #18 July 23, 2004 > When calculating my reserve wingloading, I subtract the weight of my >main, 'cause dude I'm chopping that biotch. Except that even when you pull your cutaway handle, the main will not go away if you have a total or a PC in tow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #19 July 23, 2004 Sorry guys. As a veteran of two totals and about 10 cutaways, I know that. I should have used more laughy faces. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nael 0 #20 July 25, 2004 I've sorted it out - well, it sorted itself out. I had my first cutaway on saturday. The reserve was a 220, and it felt significantly faster. Everything my instructors said would happen, happened. I landed off, it was an unfamiliar canopy (size), and I didnt like the way it flew, I just wanted to land it! I would definatly not be comfortable jumping with a 140 reserve. I got my money back for the rig with the 140, and bought anther rig I had been looking at. It has a 150 reserve, which definately makes me more comfortable. Thanks for the input, but I guess in the end nature took its course and I made the decision based on that.www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #21 July 25, 2004 The difference between a 140 and a 150 will be very, very small. If a 220 felt fast to you, I suggest you find something significantly larger than a 150. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crzjp20 0 #22 July 25, 2004 do what your comfortble with, not what some experienced jumper tells you. I have landed a 180 reserve just fine, but i am not putting that small in my rig. Why cause to me it was to fast for a f111 and cause i was not comfortable under it, so iil put a 218 or something like that in it. Bottom line is that it is your butt, not that guys, not your instructors, its yours. btw: do keep in mind i am a low jumper myself and i am just speaking from my opinions, take them or leave them it is just my ideas (aka i dont want to get flamed for making a post here cause i dont have 500+ jumps)-------------------------------------------------- Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dnewcomer 0 #23 July 25, 2004 QuoteI've sorted it out - well, it sorted itself out. I had my first cutaway on saturday..... In skydiving, as in skiing double-black diamonds, rock/ice climbing, scuba diving, etc. it is always safest to err on the conservative side. If you thought the 220 landing was fast, imagine what it would have been like flying a 150? I'd go with the larger reserve for now. BTW, why did you have to pull silver? Keep safe out there! D-- www.newconthenet.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #24 July 26, 2004 Quotedo what your comfortble with, not what some experienced jumper tells you. Yeah, great advice. The experinced jumpers here are trying to let this guy in on some of our experience without making him learn it the hard way. QuoteBottom line is that it is your butt, not that guys, not your instructors, its yours. You're right. It won't be my butt under that reserve. If it were my butt, I'd be fine with a 140 or a 150 reserve. Since it is nael's butt, I suggested he get someting bigger. He doesn't have to listen, and neither do you. That won't stop people from trying to help. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nael 0 #25 July 26, 2004 Quote Since it is nael's butt, I suggested he get someting bigger. He doesn't have to listen, and neither do you. That won't stop people from trying to help. Firstly, I am a SHE not a HE! Secondly, I agree about it being my butt on the line - thats why I question what everyone tells me, and why I asked about 10 different instructors on the weekend about me on a 140. Still, some of them said I'd be fine on it, some said it might be a bit small - I made the decision in the end based on what happened (and the advice of a few instructors I listen to more than others). The 220 wasnt necessarily a lot faster to me, rather than a lot more responsive. It wasnt really any different on landing.www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
