Aggressive Flat Turns?

[matt1215 0]

Just curious about how aggressively one can make a flat turn at low altitude and still keep the turn flat, thus not slamming oneself into the ground.

Read Scott Miller's 'Lowdown on low turns' on the PD website, scary $#!+!!

[ChrisL 2]

I think flat turns are, by their very nature and definition, not aggressive.

__

My mighty steed

[billvon 3,006]

>how aggressively one can make a flat turn at low altitude and still
>keep the turn flat, thus not slamming oneself into the ground.

What does 'aggressive' mean? If you mean diving like crazy, that's not doing a flat turn correctly. A properly done flat turn will be a lot less 'aggressive' looking than the equivalent toggle turn.

The amount of turn you can get depends on many things, like wing size, speed when entering the turn, skill, type of canopy etc.

[kelpdiver 2]

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What does 'aggressive' mean? If you mean diving like crazy, that's not doing a flat turn correctly. A properly done flat turn will be a lot less 'aggressive' looking than the equivalent toggle turn.

The amount of turn you can get depends on many things, like wing size, speed when entering the turn, skill, type of canopy etc.

I think he means what you wrote in the second paragraph. How great a change in direction can be made in a given number of vertical feet.

[WeakMindedFool 0]

Flat turns are good cause they are low speed. You should...everyone should get some professional canopy coaching. There are methods to turning your canopy 90 even nearly 180 degrees and get it back over your head with nearly no altitude loss. I've done a 90 with my feet on the ground to avoid an accident (Thanks for saving my ass Brian!).

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[matt1215 0]

Agreed on the canopy coaching. I took Scott Miller's class out at DeLand a few jumps post-AFF. I even made a dangerously low turn on one of his jumps that he videoed, and told me that that's how skydivers die. I started my downwind too late and turned to land crosswind way too low, on the jump before he taught flat turns .

I've made 6 or 7 jumps since his class and still have a lot of experimentation to do with flat turns before I take his class again. His techniques have already saved my ham (thanks Scott!!).

I've yet to be in a position where someone's right in front of me, going for the same landing spot, and I have 100 feet to act (as in his article). Other techniques (like being aware of traffic) should prevent this, but $#|+ happens.

I'm of the impression that going to half-brakes with a little less input to the left to turn right, then countering the same input to the left to stop turning; then making a crosswind landing in half-brakes would be the appropriate action.

[kingbunky 3]

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(Thanks for saving my ass Brian!).

gotta love the carving turn! just took his course last weekend now i'm itching to try some of the stuff (up high of course).

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[AFFI 0]

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There are methods to turning your canopy 90 even nearly 180 degrees and get it back over your head with nearly no altitude loss.

What is "nearly no altitude loss"? So can I avoid another canopy on a collision course as low as 50 feet and still have time to "get the canopy back overhead"?

In the middle of a properly executed flat turn the canopy should be overhead as well, if you intersect the ground at this point a PLF should provide enough protection to walk away uninjured.

Learn to keep the canopy overhead during the turn the entire time.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[davelepka 4]

A flat turn should not be aggressive at all. It's designed to get you out of trouble at the last second, and you should never fly yourself that far into trouble that you need an aggressive flat turn to get out of it. Any flat turn of more than 90 degress is a huge mistake on your part, and you need to rethink your flight planning before jumping again.

Here's why - you can turn a parachute without alititude loss well past 90, up to and even beyond 180, but these are not flat turns. These are climbing turns, although you don't actually go up. What you end up doing is getting in front of your canopy, and this becomes a problem when you stop your turn, and take up your new heading.

Presumably, you are low, very low, and now your are pointed in a clear direction, but you're out in front of your canopy, and on the verge of loosing altitude very quickly.

When you let the toggle up from deep brakes, the canopy will surge forward, and dive before returning to full flight. During this dive, your toggles have very little effect on the canopy, and can't really stop the dive, so if you're too low, you hit the ground. Hard.

Doing a flat turn involvbes going into some brakes, combined with a turn. The braking action helps to offset the altitude loss normally associated with a turn. The more of a turn you try to make, the mroe brakes required to offset the altitiude loss.

End result of a high degree flat turn is that you come out the other end with little airspeed, and your canpopy back behind you. Not good if you're low.

Look, I've seen your other posts, and you seem real interested in the finite details of very specific (bad) situations, and the very specific 'what if's'. Here s a tip - start placing your focus on proper planning, and making good choices, keeping yourself out of these trouble situations.

It's just like the concept behind pulling your handles. Have a routine, and stick with it. The fewer choices you have, the less chance you have you choosing the wrong option, and making things worse.

At this point in your progression, pay more attention to flight planning, and making good choices, like landing furhter out where there less traffic, and save the hero stuff for later. When you have a few hundered jumps or so, and flying your canopy is a little more natural, you'll see what it can and can't do.

Bottom line - a flat turn is a last chance manuver, most likely around 45 degrees. Do everything in your power to never have to use it. If you do, take the 45 or 60 degrees, make the turn, and get ready to PLF.

[billvon 3,006]

>Here's why - you can turn a parachute without alititude loss well past
> 90, up to and even beyond 180, but these are not flat turns. These
> are climbing turns, although you don't actually go up. What you end
> up doing is getting in front of your canopy, and this becomes a
> problem when you stop your turn, and take up your new heading.

Definitely not! If you pull down a toggle, you get a diving turn. If you pull down a toggle and then pull the other one down hard to flatten it, you get what you call a 'climbing turn.' A perfect flat turn uses _just_ enough opposite toggle to prevent a dive, but not enough to make it a 'climbing turn'

To practice this, try it up high. Start with one toggle and immediately follow it with the other toggle to 'flatten' it. At the end of the turn release both toggles. If the canopy dives, you didn't use enough opposite toggle. If the canopy ends up 'in front of you' you used too much opposite toggle. The goal is to come out of the flat turn at exactly the same speed you entered it with. At that point you can flare immediately if need be.

(BTW I should point out that you can never turn a parachute with no altitude loss, but a flat turn allows you to minimize the loss.)

[johnny1488 1]

It depends on how much speed you are working with.

If you are only in full flight, the more you turn, the less available lift you will have left to flare with. but a PLF in an open area sure beats a canopy collision, impact with obsticle or hooking into the ground.

When you add more speed (high performance landings), you can do quite and aggressive flat turn (carving).

It all has to do with speed and lift.

But most "flat turns" you see people refering to are not flat at all, just the slowest decent rate matched with the heading change you need to keep you out of trouble and out of a hole.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[WeakMindedFool 0]

Nearly no altitude loss as in none. Of course I'm not talking about a flat turn which won't help if your cut off while on the deck or nearly there. I didn't describe a climbing turn cause I don't feel qualified to teach it over the internet Dave and Bill however did it for me (two whose advice I probably would take over the internet). Obviously this is a move you want to practice high...a lot, but it has saved my ass twice now and I think everyone should know it! After I took Brians course I figured the thing to learn FIRST in swooping is how to get out of trouble, then learn the rest.

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[matt1215 0]

Thanks for the great info guys, good stuff to practice up high
Dave, you're right on. I like to fly in various degrees of brakes to maintain vertical separation, often watching other canopies fall away and land before I make my approach. Unless other ppl have a lot more altitude than I, I'm usually one of the last to land.

<<>>

I don't understand the difference. Seems to me like the canopy ends up in front of you in any dive.

[billvon 3,006]

>If you are only in full flight, the more you turn, the less
>available lift you will have left to flare with.

Again, if that's what's happening, the turn isn't being done right. A good flat turn keeps speed available throughout the turn, so that an instant flare at the end of the turn is possible.

[johnny1488 1]

I understand the turn isnt being done right, IF you have the altitude.

In the case you dont, though, the more you turn will mean the less flare you have.

Flat turns are a trade off between altitude and lift.

Of course, the more aware we are, the more altitude we will have to work with, the more options we will have, the less likely we are to need flat turns as a last resort in the first place!

But you are right, keep that flare power handy!

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[davelepka 4]

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Definitely not! If you pull down a toggle, you get a diving turn. If you pull down a toggle and then pull the other one down hard to flatten it, you get what you call a 'climbing turn.' A perfect flat turn uses _just_ enough opposite toggle to prevent a dive, but not enough to make it a 'climbing turn'

I think you're missing the point of my post. The idea is that you have a limited degree fo flat turn that is possible while retaining sufficient airspeed and toggle stroke for a flare when the turn is complete.

The OP was asking about high degree or aggressive flat turns. These types of flat turns can be made, however, they leave in a shitty place as far as flight after completing the turn. You've used up all available airspeed and toggle stroke, and are in no position to flare the canopy. Seeing as a flat turn to avoid an obstacle will be close to the ground, this is a shitty state of affairs.

The difference between your post and mine, is that you're working within the confines of a properly executed flat turn, and I am addressing the improper execution of a turn, and discouraging this course of action.

[billvon 3,006]

>is that you're working within the confines of a properly executed flat
>turn, and I am addressing the improper execution of a turn, and
>discouraging this course of action.

OK, I agree with you there. I would also emphasize that the practice needed to learn how to properly do a flat turn is well worth the time, so that it can be done properly when needed.

[AFFI 0]

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>is that you're working within the confines of a properly executed flat
>turn, and I am addressing the improper execution of a turn, and
>discouraging this course of action.

OK, I agree with you there. I would also emphasize that the practice needed to learn how to properly do a flat turn is well worth the time, so that it can be done properly when needed.

I would encourage that action when it is the lesser of two evils...

Best to learn how to first, a well executed flat turn when the chips are down are the reason I am still alive to type this - thank you Don Y.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…