f94sbu 0 #1 July 18, 2004 Hi! A couple of days ago at a local dropzone we had some pretty light winds that were channing direction all the time (not very common here in sweden) And one of the loads ended up landing in all kinds of directions. All of a sudden I find myself discussing this with the jumpleader (I wasn't on the load). He was saying that out of 10 people only 3 people were landing in the correct direction. (Into the very light wind that was observed, no T was put out) So I asked him how the first jumper was landing. Downwind he said. Then, I asked him why he thought those 3 jumpers were landing in the correct direction when they obviously didn't land according the first jumpers (There were at least 2 jumpers landing together, downwind) What's your opinion on this subject? I was trying to tell him that I'd rather see the full load land in 3m/s downwind that see 2 canopies collide 5 meters above ground but he wasn't listening. Comments, suggestions anyone? regards, Stefan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #2 July 18, 2004 for me it's better too to have everyone landing in the same direction.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
burbleflyer 0 #3 July 18, 2004 The idiot always has the right of way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigway 4 #4 July 18, 2004 i am landing into the wind if other jumpers are coming in with me. First thing you learn about canopy control. If the first jumper is coming downwind, i aint following him in, what if the wind picks up? i know a bit of down wind aint going to hurt anyone but everyone knows to land into the wind so i dont know everyone else is going to land down wind just cause of one person. Land into wind, one of the first things i ever learnt. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites towerrat 0 #5 July 18, 2004 I think we're talking light and variable here, in which case, if a landing direction hasn't been previously decided upon, we follow the first jumper in. I was under the impression that this way is pretty standard. Am I wrong? edit for spellingPlay stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 140 #6 July 18, 2004 if the wind is too strong in my opinion for a downwind landing I will go land far away from the other canopies in the direction I choose. We have the chance to have a big landing area, with 10 skydivers per load...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites f94sbu 0 #7 July 18, 2004 Quote if the wind is too strong in my opinion for a downwind landing I will go land far away from the other canopies in the direction I choose. We have the chance to have a big landing area, with 10 skydivers per load... Obviously the best desicion. But for the other 9 jumpers that are trying to hug each other during landing I'd like to have them going in the same direction This day the winds were actually shifting 180 degrees within less than a minute, so your planned final into the wind could actually become a downwind landing. Otoh, the good thing about this is that in this condition, the winds are very light. (But scary for the downwind-first-timers :) rgds, Stefan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigway 4 #8 July 18, 2004 variable okay but if if i see someone the first guy landing downwind and i am the second coming in for the landing, i will correct it and land into wind. If everyone follows the person who make the mistake could turn to shit pretty easily. If a 2 or 3 were going downwind then i would follow but i anit going downwind just cause the first bloke is i will be landing somewhere awat from him. AS said above give the idiot the right away. But this is just my thoughts and the rules i have for myself. Maybe after this future posts on this topic i might be changing this rule. we will see. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #9 July 18, 2004 by doing that you are creating a more dangerous situation for everyone... if you dont like the direction set by the first jumper down, land off! it is a very simple rule of thumb really a downwind landing is a MUCH safer option than having 20+ jumpers playing 'who should i follow' and jousting each other in a small landing area...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #10 July 18, 2004 Quote by doing that you are creating a more dangerous situation for everyone... if you dont like the direction set by the first jumper down, land off! it is a very simple rule of thumb really a downwind landing is a MUCH safer option than having 20+ jumpers playing 'who should i follow' and jousting each other in a small landing area... And a voice of reason sounds from the darkness. Listen to this man...he speaks the truth. Wind sock chasers are a danger to everyone, including themselves. Find another place to land if you don't agree with the direction, if there's none, then suck if up and land the same way. If you can't handle it, upsize. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigway 4 #11 July 18, 2004 Yeah but if you read what i said, it said that if i was the second landing i would go upwind. the rest would follow because it is the right way. why would everyone follow a wrong? if i was the third landing i would do whatever the second landing was doing. if i didnt like it i said i would land off. If your mate jumps of a bridge does that mean you are going to jump off a bridge as well? lol...lol i am! .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigway 4 #12 July 18, 2004 Yes i am sure i can handle it. I was just thought my way of thinking here was the correct way. It sure seems like it is not the right way so i might have to change my way of thinking. fair enough. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites f94sbu 0 #13 July 19, 2004 QuoteYeah but if you read what i said, it said that if i was the second landing i would go upwind. the rest would follow because it is the right way. I guess that the problem here is that the rest of the load will have trouble seeing which one of you that is going to land first (since they are just watching your landing pattern and tries to follow it) And by the time the first jumper hits the grounds, a few other have probably started their pattern. So even if you land upwind to show them which way to go, they will have to abort their pattern and find a new approach. Which unfortunately isn't the most obvious thing to do for people with moderate experience. So, whenever I see 2 people setting up for landing in different directions, I get the hell out of the regular landing area and land somewhere else since I know that a few moments later it will be filled with jumpers landing in every direction. And everyone is going to be wondering who picked the right direction. rgds, Stefan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tombuch 0 #14 July 19, 2004 Ughhhhh! This has been discussed to death on this site many times over. There are two basic approaches. Either everybody decides to follow the first person down, or everybody agrees on a landing direction before the plane takes off. Either system works. See my take on the issue at: http://ranchskydive.com/safety/tb_article12.htm. It is one solution for one drop zone.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #15 July 19, 2004 QuoteYeah but if you read what i said, it said that if i was the second landing i would go upwind. the rest would follow because it is the right way. I thought that the rule was to follow the first person down, not the second. A lot of the rules that we have were written in blood. Mean anything? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigway 4 #16 July 19, 2004 for heavens sake mr jimbo, as in my last post i said i am obviously wrong in this and will change my way of thinking. get off my back you seem to be giving me shit about anything i post in this forum. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Push 0 #17 July 19, 2004 The most important part of a landing is your visual radar, no? I mean, first person down and all that aside, it's important not to set up for final heading straight for another canopy. Assess the pattern and fly with everyone else. For me, the rules we have at our dropzone regarding the landing direction are a guideline that I use to place my mental checkpoints for where I want to be when. Once people start landing, I observe what is going on. Once I'm in the pattern, I follow the pattern. If this means landing downwind, that's where I'm going, it beats canopy collisions any day. Also remember that you do not have to land on the dropzone. If the landing area does not seem kosher, land out. Too many people? Too chaotic? Just doesn't feel right? Buddy fresh off student status seems to be converging for the same spot as you are? If you know the LZ and all the outs, what's the problem? Cheers. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,989 #18 July 19, 2004 >what if the wind picks up? Excellent question. What if the wind changes direction at 200 feet? What will you do? >Land into wind, one of the first things i ever learnt. That's like "flare at ten feet." It's a thing to tell students that's usually a good idea, but you have to get beyond that once you start jumping smaller canopies. Similarly, it is better to land downwind with 19 other people than be the one person who lands against the traffic pattern, even if that one person lands into the wind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #19 July 19, 2004 Once I'm in the pattern, I follow the pattern. If this means landing downwind, that's where I'm going, it beats canopy collisions any day. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At Pitt Meadows, we have a simple policy. Since prevailing winds come from the West, the default landing direction is West. First guy down sets the landing direction. Everyone else follows him. If he landed downwind, then you are obliged to follow him. You can kick his silly ass after everyone lands safely! If you don't like his choice of landing direction, you can land in the cow pasture next door. Only one percent of our jumpers take this option because it is too much of a hassle climbing over the fence. Note: when winds are light and variable and confusing, you are rarely asked to handle more than a 4 knot crosswind or down wind. If you cannot handle a 4 knot cross wind, then you are jumping the wrong canopy. The bottom line is: jousting in the landing area is a fool's sport! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JKT 0 #20 July 19, 2004 All this land in the direction of the first jumper assumes that you actually saw them landing... what does everyone recommend you do if you didn't? In the ideal world, you'd look and see what direction everyone else is landing in, but if they are going every which way? (It hasn't happened to me yet, and my DZ has a big landing area and massive open fields around that, so it is easy to avoid everyone else if you want or need to, not to mention a big arrow pointing out the landing direction for low wind conditions, but for my future reference...)----- Official 100 jump wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,989 #21 July 19, 2004 > In the ideal world, you'd look and see what direction everyone else >is landing in, but if they are going every which way? Land far away from the main area, into the wind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JKT 0 #22 July 19, 2004 I guess I wasn't clear - this is what I can (and would) do at the moment, but what if that isn't an option at another DZ? I guess you would hang on brakes until airspace was clearer and if necessary, shout at the people already on the ground to get out of the way?----- Official 100 jump wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #23 July 19, 2004 If you can ensure that you're the last person in the air when you land, then landing a different direction isn't as big of an issue. But remember this if you are jumping at a large DZ or a large boogie. There could be multiple aircraft in the air at the same time and someone else from a different load could be also be setting up to land. I had a landing at this year's Eloy Holiday Boogie where I tried to be the first one down to set the pattern and myself and another guy (on my load) went opposite directions in the main landing area. But little did I realize that there was another person in the air with us from a different load going the same direction of this other guy. Well when push comes to shove, I was the one at fault and Pixie (Betsy) in a nice way was sure to make sure that she slapped my wrist for my mistake. Follow the first person down, if you don't like the direction they've set, land off. And knowing the local preferred landing direction when the winds are low is also good to know. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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bigway 4 #4 July 18, 2004 i am landing into the wind if other jumpers are coming in with me. First thing you learn about canopy control. If the first jumper is coming downwind, i aint following him in, what if the wind picks up? i know a bit of down wind aint going to hurt anyone but everyone knows to land into the wind so i dont know everyone else is going to land down wind just cause of one person. Land into wind, one of the first things i ever learnt. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #5 July 18, 2004 I think we're talking light and variable here, in which case, if a landing direction hasn't been previously decided upon, we follow the first jumper in. I was under the impression that this way is pretty standard. Am I wrong? edit for spellingPlay stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #6 July 18, 2004 if the wind is too strong in my opinion for a downwind landing I will go land far away from the other canopies in the direction I choose. We have the chance to have a big landing area, with 10 skydivers per load...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f94sbu 0 #7 July 18, 2004 Quote if the wind is too strong in my opinion for a downwind landing I will go land far away from the other canopies in the direction I choose. We have the chance to have a big landing area, with 10 skydivers per load... Obviously the best desicion. But for the other 9 jumpers that are trying to hug each other during landing I'd like to have them going in the same direction This day the winds were actually shifting 180 degrees within less than a minute, so your planned final into the wind could actually become a downwind landing. Otoh, the good thing about this is that in this condition, the winds are very light. (But scary for the downwind-first-timers :) rgds, Stefan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #8 July 18, 2004 variable okay but if if i see someone the first guy landing downwind and i am the second coming in for the landing, i will correct it and land into wind. If everyone follows the person who make the mistake could turn to shit pretty easily. If a 2 or 3 were going downwind then i would follow but i anit going downwind just cause the first bloke is i will be landing somewhere awat from him. AS said above give the idiot the right away. But this is just my thoughts and the rules i have for myself. Maybe after this future posts on this topic i might be changing this rule. we will see. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #9 July 18, 2004 by doing that you are creating a more dangerous situation for everyone... if you dont like the direction set by the first jumper down, land off! it is a very simple rule of thumb really a downwind landing is a MUCH safer option than having 20+ jumpers playing 'who should i follow' and jousting each other in a small landing area...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #10 July 18, 2004 Quote by doing that you are creating a more dangerous situation for everyone... if you dont like the direction set by the first jumper down, land off! it is a very simple rule of thumb really a downwind landing is a MUCH safer option than having 20+ jumpers playing 'who should i follow' and jousting each other in a small landing area... And a voice of reason sounds from the darkness. Listen to this man...he speaks the truth. Wind sock chasers are a danger to everyone, including themselves. Find another place to land if you don't agree with the direction, if there's none, then suck if up and land the same way. If you can't handle it, upsize. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #11 July 18, 2004 Yeah but if you read what i said, it said that if i was the second landing i would go upwind. the rest would follow because it is the right way. why would everyone follow a wrong? if i was the third landing i would do whatever the second landing was doing. if i didnt like it i said i would land off. If your mate jumps of a bridge does that mean you are going to jump off a bridge as well? lol...lol i am! .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #12 July 18, 2004 Yes i am sure i can handle it. I was just thought my way of thinking here was the correct way. It sure seems like it is not the right way so i might have to change my way of thinking. fair enough. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f94sbu 0 #13 July 19, 2004 QuoteYeah but if you read what i said, it said that if i was the second landing i would go upwind. the rest would follow because it is the right way. I guess that the problem here is that the rest of the load will have trouble seeing which one of you that is going to land first (since they are just watching your landing pattern and tries to follow it) And by the time the first jumper hits the grounds, a few other have probably started their pattern. So even if you land upwind to show them which way to go, they will have to abort their pattern and find a new approach. Which unfortunately isn't the most obvious thing to do for people with moderate experience. So, whenever I see 2 people setting up for landing in different directions, I get the hell out of the regular landing area and land somewhere else since I know that a few moments later it will be filled with jumpers landing in every direction. And everyone is going to be wondering who picked the right direction. rgds, Stefan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #14 July 19, 2004 Ughhhhh! This has been discussed to death on this site many times over. There are two basic approaches. Either everybody decides to follow the first person down, or everybody agrees on a landing direction before the plane takes off. Either system works. See my take on the issue at: http://ranchskydive.com/safety/tb_article12.htm. It is one solution for one drop zone.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #15 July 19, 2004 QuoteYeah but if you read what i said, it said that if i was the second landing i would go upwind. the rest would follow because it is the right way. I thought that the rule was to follow the first person down, not the second. A lot of the rules that we have were written in blood. Mean anything? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #16 July 19, 2004 for heavens sake mr jimbo, as in my last post i said i am obviously wrong in this and will change my way of thinking. get off my back you seem to be giving me shit about anything i post in this forum. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #17 July 19, 2004 The most important part of a landing is your visual radar, no? I mean, first person down and all that aside, it's important not to set up for final heading straight for another canopy. Assess the pattern and fly with everyone else. For me, the rules we have at our dropzone regarding the landing direction are a guideline that I use to place my mental checkpoints for where I want to be when. Once people start landing, I observe what is going on. Once I'm in the pattern, I follow the pattern. If this means landing downwind, that's where I'm going, it beats canopy collisions any day. Also remember that you do not have to land on the dropzone. If the landing area does not seem kosher, land out. Too many people? Too chaotic? Just doesn't feel right? Buddy fresh off student status seems to be converging for the same spot as you are? If you know the LZ and all the outs, what's the problem? Cheers. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #18 July 19, 2004 >what if the wind picks up? Excellent question. What if the wind changes direction at 200 feet? What will you do? >Land into wind, one of the first things i ever learnt. That's like "flare at ten feet." It's a thing to tell students that's usually a good idea, but you have to get beyond that once you start jumping smaller canopies. Similarly, it is better to land downwind with 19 other people than be the one person who lands against the traffic pattern, even if that one person lands into the wind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #19 July 19, 2004 Once I'm in the pattern, I follow the pattern. If this means landing downwind, that's where I'm going, it beats canopy collisions any day. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At Pitt Meadows, we have a simple policy. Since prevailing winds come from the West, the default landing direction is West. First guy down sets the landing direction. Everyone else follows him. If he landed downwind, then you are obliged to follow him. You can kick his silly ass after everyone lands safely! If you don't like his choice of landing direction, you can land in the cow pasture next door. Only one percent of our jumpers take this option because it is too much of a hassle climbing over the fence. Note: when winds are light and variable and confusing, you are rarely asked to handle more than a 4 knot crosswind or down wind. If you cannot handle a 4 knot cross wind, then you are jumping the wrong canopy. The bottom line is: jousting in the landing area is a fool's sport! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JKT 0 #20 July 19, 2004 All this land in the direction of the first jumper assumes that you actually saw them landing... what does everyone recommend you do if you didn't? In the ideal world, you'd look and see what direction everyone else is landing in, but if they are going every which way? (It hasn't happened to me yet, and my DZ has a big landing area and massive open fields around that, so it is easy to avoid everyone else if you want or need to, not to mention a big arrow pointing out the landing direction for low wind conditions, but for my future reference...)----- Official 100 jump wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #21 July 19, 2004 > In the ideal world, you'd look and see what direction everyone else >is landing in, but if they are going every which way? Land far away from the main area, into the wind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JKT 0 #22 July 19, 2004 I guess I wasn't clear - this is what I can (and would) do at the moment, but what if that isn't an option at another DZ? I guess you would hang on brakes until airspace was clearer and if necessary, shout at the people already on the ground to get out of the way?----- Official 100 jump wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #23 July 19, 2004 If you can ensure that you're the last person in the air when you land, then landing a different direction isn't as big of an issue. But remember this if you are jumping at a large DZ or a large boogie. There could be multiple aircraft in the air at the same time and someone else from a different load could be also be setting up to land. I had a landing at this year's Eloy Holiday Boogie where I tried to be the first one down to set the pattern and myself and another guy (on my load) went opposite directions in the main landing area. But little did I realize that there was another person in the air with us from a different load going the same direction of this other guy. Well when push comes to shove, I was the one at fault and Pixie (Betsy) in a nice way was sure to make sure that she slapped my wrist for my mistake. Follow the first person down, if you don't like the direction they've set, land off. And knowing the local preferred landing direction when the winds are low is also good to know. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
