Sport Suicide - Discussion

[bigway 4]

Nothing!, i would have thought we were doing alright as it is.


do these mean you were taking me to be serious? Or did my post offend you? if it did offend you that was not what i was going for

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[steve1 5]

Quote

Nothing!, i would have thought we were doing alright as it is.


do these mean you were taking me to be serious? Or did my post offend you? if it did offend you that was not what i was going for

Oh, not at all. I guess I'm not very good at writing humor. I didn't mean for anyone to take my last post seriously. (And this is such a serious subject.) I thought your post was really funny though, and maybe it is good to inject some humor here. I needed a good laugh. I don't think I could keep working as a counselor, without laughing on a regular basis. It really helps a person keep their sanity in a crazy world...Steve1

[tbrown 26]

Quote

Quote

Just because you are depressed does not mean you are going to commit suicide.

Yes, but it does not mean you will not either. I think a clinically depressed person should be cleared to skydive by a mental heath professional. Skydiving Instructors, or DZO's that I know are not qualified to make that call.

That being said I don't think that anti-depression meds should automaticly ground anyone either. But I think that is a case for a mental heath professional as well.

I can think of enough local jumpers to form at least an 8 Way team called "Lexipro". They're all well adjusted people who use a little prescribed chemical assistance to regulate some painful moods. Actually, they're the ones taking the RESPONSIBILITY for their health enough to do something about it. There are too many people out there, and in our sport, who ignore it, try to tough it out, or drown it in alcohol. They're the more potentially dangerous ones.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[bigway 4]

No worries mate, I have that problem with writing humor as well. All my humor ends up in the recycling bin.

By the way, (to the other thread) Suicides are not like terrorist attacks!!

That is a disgusting thing to say. Someone watches to much television me thinks.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[WeakMindedFool 0]

Yes dude...if no one has told you today...You Rock!

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[WeakMindedFool 0]

Quote

No worries mate, I have that problem with writing humor as well. All my humor ends up in the recycling bin.

By the way, (to the other thread) Suicides are not like terrorist attacks!!

That is a disgusting thing to say. Someone watches to much television me thinks.

I think the point was that if you think you can stop it, you're dreaming. If someone is willing to go through all the bullshit to make a first jump, they have planned it out. The decision has been made, this is no cry for help the time for intervention has passed. JUST LIKE if someone is willing to strap explosives to themselves and walk into a crowd and detonate them, this is an individual whose determinations is...daunting. It brings to mind monks and gasoline.
I understand that we don’t want to see people die…mostly, but to screen the mental health of the folks who come out to the DZ…Close the doors cause the game is over! You think skydiving has student retention problems now? Your post was funny (I laughed) but it had a lot of truth in it as well. Mental health experts have told me that I am ill; I have been told that I ABSOLUTELY will have psychological problems because of my job…BULLSHIT on both counts! There are no absolutes when it comes to the mind, we don’t know enough to even form the right questions most of the time. Steve1 is right that most of the time it’s guesswork, the witch doctor is probably MORE effective then the psychologist many times because they are comfortable making intuitive leaps of faith, trying to frame behavior in the language of science is silly.
Now as for our collective problem, image. People can kill themselves any way they choose, if they mean it there is nothing you can do about it. What can we do to improve our image to the Wuffo public? That’s the question we need to ponder! It sounds as if you are trying and I applaud that, and thank you.

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[bigway 4]

I hear what you are saying and the thing is i agree with you 100%

At the same time though, if this continues something needs to be done over here, what exactly, i dont know. I dont think screening is something that could happen, i dont think there is anyway you could make this work, it is just not that easy.

But how about something a little more practical? Instead of just an instructor teaching static line or AFF, you know how it is the student goes to class and gets taught.
How about before the person can be taught, how about just a quick 5 minute interview with the chief safety officer or the dzo. May sound stupid but really, someone who wants to learn skydiving at the moment signs some forms and pays the money and jumps, all we are worried about is then drilling into them safety procedures to keep them safe, fine, but what if this person wanted to kill themself??? we have just missed a big step, we have taken them on and are teaching them how to be safe as that is all we worry about. Lets throw another step in the middle of it all and before we tell them anything about skydiving they sit down one on one with the safety officer and have a 5 minute talk. Questions like why do you want to do static line over a tandem? what do you want to get out of this? are you looking at completing the course? if not why not?

Something like this might then make the CSO aware of the ones that are one time static line students and he can keep a closer eye on those.

Instead of some shrink we have each student sit down for 5 minutes and have a talk. At the moment we more or less take anyone on to learn to skydive, why dont they/we have to go through a little interview before we can procced.
Maybe this will not stop everyone from killing themselves but maybe it will stop one, maybe newbies that are going to commit suicide will realise it is not as easy as just paying the money and go somewhere else and do it. maybe not.

A person that is about to kill themself want to make it easy i would think, they are not going to want to be questioned about what they are doing, they may then break down.

I dont know, but would this be such a dumb thing to introduce?

What do you all think?


About the terrorist comment, i know what he was saying but using terrorists to take your side of an argument is sick and disgusting. my home country does not have terrorist attacks but we do have the highest suicide rate in the world. Terrorist attacks are not a guarantee in life, maybe at the moment it is being american, but to say it will never stop is just conceding and this gives your country no reason to be at war.
We all hope these terrorist attacks will stop around the world, to say it will never stop is saying that they won.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[WeakMindedFool 0]

I think, and all you lawyers out there tell me if I got it right, that in this country you just assumed a whole lot of liability. You're basically saying that the person is stable, after all the stated reason for the interview is to establish weather or not the person is suicidal.
As for the Terrorist thing...the only way to win that battle is to kill all of them, or get them to not want to fight you. As long as people are willing to hurt themselves more then your willing to hurt them, you've already lost.

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[skykittykat 0]

Unfortunately, suicides are going to happen, but we should really put this into perspective - how many thousands of jumps are done per year by thousands of people around the world and how many of these jumps result in death by suicide?

Unfortunately, Britain, with a smaller population of jumpers, has had in the past couple of years fatalities that were suicides. The media picks up on dramatic stories rather than feel good stories - I bet that the coverage of the World Records (women and mixed) and the British Women's records combined did not garner as many "column inches" as the suicides.

I think that a knee jerk reaction of putting new rules in place to weed out suicidal people would be ineffective, especially as the focus for the skydiving community should be safety under canopy, like the BPA has done.

More and more skydivers are killing themselves whilst under a fully flyable canopy.

Liz
Traa di Liooar

[bigway 4]

With the lawyer thing,
Does business owners in your country not have the right to refuse service at the managers discretion?

I know in new zealand most shops have a sign that says "we reserve the right to refuse service at the managers discretion"
I find that a shame if you guys over there can not decide on who you want to serve etc..
Do you not have to interview or other things like getting a gun license or anything?

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[jumpingjimmy 0]

i dont think anything needs to be done in the UK to stop suicides in skydiving

i say good luck to anybody who wants to kill themselves skydiving, i can't think of a better way to do it. Nice and quick and painless, why not? i believe that people should be allowed to kill themselves if they want to, the "we must stop them" attitude stinks in my book, the last thing i'd want if i'd decided to kill myself would be some do-gooder interfering with my actions what right has anybody else got to interfer with what another person wants to do, especially killing themselves!!!

will people killing themselves effect skydiving? no of course not .... people need to get real and wake up. Everybody already knows it a dangerous activity, nobody is suddenly going to think "hey, i thought skydiving was safe until i just read that it's possible to commit suicide doing it"

will suicides reduce the number of students comming into the sport? no of course not... again, everybody who takes up skydiving is ALREADY fully aware of what can happen, you're not going to be any more aware of the dangers by somebody killing themself doing it. You've already made up your mind you want to do it, and suicides in skydiving is not going to make you not do it.

is suicides going to get skydiving more regulated by government? no of course not... when people commit suicide by putting their neck over a train line doesn't get the train industry more regulated does it!!! when people drive head first into brick walls doesn't get the car industry more regulated does it

stop thinking that suicides will change anything, they won't... and stop trying to meddal in peoples decisions to kill themselves

EDITED TO ADD...

people should see suicide as a celebration in some ways... a celebration that the person who committs it is now free from his troubles, free from suffering. People should admire the grit and determination it took to make the final sacrifice and to have the balls to carry it through.

[bigway 4]

Quote

i say good luck to anybody who wants to kill themselves skydiving, i can't think of a better way to do it. Nice and quick and painless, why not?

Why not???? because dropzones close over this shit!!!

You are an ignorant person Jimmy.

I take it you have never seen a bounce, i take it you do not care for our sport and i take it that you have no idea how a dropzone is run.

I see why you hide who you are cause with an atitude like that i can not imagine any dropzones letting you jump at their dz's if you said you had that sort of atitude.
You are a risk to any dropzone if you think that way.

Quote

Everybody already knows it a dangerous activity

You know shit mate! New Zealand is the biggest adventure playground in the world. Skydiving is the safest adventure activity in the country.

Quote

will suicides reduce the number of students comming into the sport? no of course not... again, everybody who takes up skydiving is ALREADY fully aware of what can happen, you're not going to be any more aware of the dangers by somebody killing themself doing it

You are contradicting yourself. People already in the sport know the dangers and how safe it is.

that is not people coming into the sport is it?
Yes it will stop people, it does stop people as it is. Skydiving is safer than driving a car! people do not know this cause they only hear the bad publicity so yes it does stop people coming into the sport and that is why there is already so few of us.

Suicide a way of celebration?? you are fucked in the head and i hope i never have to be in a plane with you.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[jumpingjimmy 0]

Quote

Why not???? because dropzones close over this shit!!!

name me one !

Quote

I see why you hide who you are cause with an atitude like that i can not imagine any dropzones letting you jump at their dz's if you said you had that sort of atitude.

you really think a DZ owner is going to turn down my money just because of my point of view on people committing suicide? i think with the shitty weather in the Uk drop zone owners need all the money they can get

Quote

You are a risk to any dropzone if you think that way.

why?

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Everybody already knows it a dangerous activity

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You know shit mate! New Zealand is the biggest adventure playground in the world. Skydiving is the safest adventure activity in the country.

i'm not sure what you're trying to say here? are you trying to say skydiving is not dangerous? i said it was.... you seem to be saying it's not

Quote

that is not people coming into the sport is it?
Yes it will stop people, it does stop people as it is. Skydiving is safer than driving a car! people do not know this cause they only hear the bad publicity so yes it does stop people coming into the sport and that is why there is already so few of us.

have you got any facts to back up it stops people coming into the sport? or is that just your opinion? because you know what opinions are like don't you?

Quote

Suicide a way of celebration?? you are fucked in the head and i hope i never have to be in a plane with you.

too late dude, you already have been

[pincheck 0]

guys if you must name call take it to pm's. you both have points of view that you feel passionate about which is fine but this is not the place for a bust up.

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun

[jumpingjimmy 0]

i'm not name calling, i respect him for his passionate belief in something .... i'd rather have a pint and argue the toss with somebody like him, than stand next to some boring person and talk about mind numbingly boring stuff all night

[bigway 4]

I know who you are!
You are one of two groups of people i know.."WB"? or did we get fucked up at the boogie togethor. LOL

Thanks for the respect of my opinion, i too have the respect of your opinion but at the same time think you are playing more for the rise and the occation.

Anyway, name you one. It was not suicide, it was just a bounce but same result death. Paraki skydiving many years ago under the original owners closed after a student bounced and this got to the owners and closed up shop.

I dont know if a dz owner would turn away someone with this point of view you have but i do think they would not be happy letting you jump if they knew you had this point of view and think they would keep a closer eye on your jumping and what you are doing while in the holding pen.

I have no facts that it stops people coming into the sport, no more than anyone else, we all know many people say 'fuck that' that is stupi, that is crazy etc. Cause they think there is a good chance you are going to die. We all know if you stay safe and keep to dive plans and emergency procedures that there is a hell of a good chance you are not going to die.

What i am saying is that people think skydiving is the one of the most dangerous things out there, everyday people would think it is more dangerous than crossing the street or crossing a zebra crossing when in fact it is not, there are more everyday things out there that are way more dangerous than skydiving.

Sory i said you are fucked, i did not mean it as a personal insult, i enjoy bashing the keys in reply to you as i think you are enjoying it as well.

Let me know if i was correct in who i am thinking you are.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[jumpingjimmy 0]

actually, no... i'm not the person you think i am

[bigway 4]

Give us a clue then, what dropzone is your main dropzone?

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[bigway 4]

Been reading all your posts trying to figure out who you are and you dont give anything away, however i am starting to think by the way you project yourself you are in fact


























Colin?

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[Ron 10]

Quote

what right has anybody else got to interfer with what another person wants to do, especially killing themselves!!!

Your right to do whatever you want, ends when it can seriously effect innocent people in a negative way.

Quote

will people killing themselves effect skydiving? no of course not .... people need to get real and wake up

DZ's close over things like that, people have emotional trama from seeing things like that. Maybe you need to wake up and not be selfish?

Quote

is suicides going to get skydiving more regulated by government? no of course not...

Again you don't know of what you speak. Law makers have nothing better to do that regulate things they don't bother to understand for the public good. I can think of at least one airport where there will never be a DZ after a fatality there. I can think of plenty more that have problems being allowed to jump do to just the *chance* of an accident.

You don't seem to know what you are talking about.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

How about before the person can be taught, how about just a quick 5 minute interview with the chief safety officer or the dzo.

If a 6 hour FJC would show signs, what is 5 minutes going to do?!

As WMF suggests, something so planned out isn't going to be easily stopped by something like that. (at least not twice)

So...I'm not sure where the solution is for England, and hope it doesn't actually become necessary to try to solve this problem.

[tbrown 26]

Quote

Wouldn't preventing someone from jumping as they have previous history of mental health issue be breach of human rights?

Maybe something like skydiving would be good for them, a fun outlet, something to give their attention and enjoy. I am thinking more about depression than blatant psychos.

There are a lot of things in our sport that might be considered a breach of human rights, simply because there is a low tolerance for people who cannot or will not jump safely. I think we've all known of some student who was handed their walking papers because they couldn't get the hang of pulling above 2 grand or some other inane kind of behavior. This isn't a sport for eveybody, some people simply should NOT be skydiving.

But speaking as a person who takes an antidepressant and who has had periodic brushes with depression for many years, I don't see any reason why a person who is managing their condition can't skydive, or even why it should be anybody else's business. Personally, and I can only speak for myself, if I'm having a problem with depression I don't even want to skydive and won't even go out to a dropzone. For me, skydiving requires a degree of confidence and feeling good about myself in order to get on the plane, if I'm not feeling good about life the last thing in the world I want to do is amuse myself by taking a calculated risk on my life.

I also think a lot of mental health professionals are nutty as fruitcakes themselves. A lot of them aren't even MDs anyway and I'm not about to let some nutty PhD pass judgement on my ability to safely enjoy myself.

If you look closely at your USPA renewal, we're all supposed to have some kind of a medical certificate from a doctor, or else sign off on some kind of a statement swearing to god that we think we're good to go anyway. I think we just have to leave it at that, or else strictly enforce the medical certificate thing - and I don't think USPA's going to do that.

This is starting to sound like some of the other "fad crises" that periodically pop up in these forums, like people who suddnely get concerned that their reserve might not open, so maybe they should wear a second reserve, etc. Last year in thhe U.S. there was ONE death where suicide MIGHT have been a contributing factor, with an older jumper who had suffered a stroke a few years back. But he was also jumping older gear, had no AAD and in light of his medical history it was probably just a cascade of events that resulted in his unfortunate death, and though possibly a suicide, it doesn't appear all that likely. The Brits on the other hand seem to have had a bit of a rough patch with this issue lately. But who was the latest one to go ? A walk-in first jump student, who appeared "completely normal" ?

We all have to look out for our friends, but requiring a stack of paperwork is neither practical or desirable.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[steve1 5]

Quote

But speaking as a person who takes an antidepressant and who has had periodic brushes with depression for many years, I don't see any reason why a person who is managing their condition can't skydive, or even why it should be anybody else's business. Personally, and I can only speak for myself, if I'm having a problem with depression I don't even want to skydive and won't even go out to a dropzone. For me, skydiving requires a degree of confidence and feeling good about myself in order to get on the plane, if I'm not feeling good about life the last thing in the world I want to do is amuse myself by taking a calculated risk on my life.
..................................................................
>>>>I think this is well said. There are a ton of people out there who take anti-depressants. It doesn't mean they are suicidal. Many of these same people are jumpers. Does it indicate that they have a greater chance of suicide?...possibly, but I doubt that this is a huge red flag, or probably not much more danger than the average jumper. I see it as someone who recongizes their problem and is handling it the right way.

I took an SSRI anti-depressant myself for a few years. I took it mainly to deal with stress, I was going through at work, but then again, I have had some serious bouts of depression myself.

Most of my family are alcoholics. That's how they deal with their depression...self medicating their troubles away with boose. My brother drank himself to death a few years back. Is this a better choice? I think not. Yet many think that getting drunk on a regular basis is more of a normal behavior than taking an anti-depressant medication.
....................................................................






I also think a lot of mental health professionals are nutty as fruitcakes themselves. A lot of them aren't even MDs anyway and I'm not about to let some nutty PhD pass judgement on my ability to safely enjoy myself.
reply]
..................................................................
>>>>>You know, I've noticed this myself. A lot of mental health professionals do seem a little off at times. Some more than others. This may not be a bad thing, in most cases. Many of these professionals have known the pain and suffering that go along with mental illness. They have experienced it themselves, and they have a lot more empathy for someone else who is going through the same thing.

In therapy, you deal with some pretty abstract stuff, (at times). It's really hard to understand if you've never known at least some dysfunction in your own life. It's kind of like learning to play basketball. Who would you want for a coach? Someone who's never played basketball before himself, would likely be a poor coach. But then again, you wouldn't want a therapist who still is a nut case either.

Therapy can make a huge difference, in my opinion. It helped me a lot, when I needed it. The key is getting the right therapist. Some are great, while others can be dangerous. Use your gut instincts, on this. If a therapist seems like a quack there is a good chance you're right. Find a different one. Self help books can help also. They are a whole lot cheaper than therapy.

Actually clinical psychologists (who have a PHD) are probably the best at therapy. That is what they specialize in. Psychiatrists are medical doctors who specialize in medication. They've also had training in therapy. Licensed Clinical Professional Counselors LCPC's have a masters plus a couple years of supervised practice at therapy. They are probably less expensive than a Psychiatrist or Clinical Psychologist....Steve1

• Quote