Serious question about asking someone their experience level

[ACMESkydiver 0]

I just don't ever know how to do this...here's the situation that comes up:

Somebody walks up to me and gives me some kind of advice -any kind of advice- from packing to spotting to landing, whatever. I've had people with 1000's of jumps do this and people on solo student status do this...I've had people with half my jumps try to give me canopy wingloading advice and tell me how my canopy snivels (?? I've been jumping it but I don't know this? Hmmm...)

Here's the question: How do you *politely* ask someone their jump numbers or experience level? I feel dumb asking someone and they tell me they have 1200 jumps, now I look stupid for not knowing that they were 'Dave, the guy who knows everything on the DZ' kind of thing.

I want to know their qualifications before I consider their advice and act upon it, but how do you ask that? Especially at a new DZ, or when you've never met this visiting super star?

I made a really dumb mistake a while ago...some guy was giving me spotting advice or something I think it was...and I told him 'it's ok, I can handle it, thanks' because honestly I thought he was with the students. Then I saw him get ready to video a tandem, and I felt like such an idiot. I apologized to him later for blowing him off, but it's also happened that someone gave me packing advice that I thought was odd, but I admit I don't know everything, so I consider what he's saying and think about trying it. Then I see him gearing up for a solo on a student rig.

How do I keep from getting into these situations?

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[ScottyInAus 0]

Just ask, I ask the question all the time, normally in a conversation but have asked some people when they've given me advice or questioned something I do or don't do.
If you know for a fact that they have less experience than you just nod smile and say "riiiiiight"
Or you could correct them.

You have to remember that there may be people out there with higher jump numbers, than you, but may not read as many articles, safety bulletins, incident reports etc. so they don't know as much about the subject as you.

Cheers,
Jason.

[leapdog 0]

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I just don't ever know how to do this...here's the situation that comes up:

Somebody walks up to me and gives me some kind of advice -any kind of advice- from packing to spotting to landing, whatever. I've had people with 1000's of jumps do this and people on solo student status do this...I've had people with half my jumps try to give me canopy wingloading advice and tell me how my canopy snivels (?? I've been jumping it but I don't know this? Hmmm...)

Here's the question: How do you *politely* ask someone their jump numbers or experience level? I feel dumb asking someone and they tell me they have 1200 jumps, now I look stupid for not knowing that they were 'Dave, the guy who knows everything on the DZ' kind of thing.

I want to know their qualifications before I consider their advice and act upon it, but how do you ask that? Especially at a new DZ, or when you've never met this visiting super star?

I made a really dumb mistake a while ago...some guy was giving me spotting advice or something I think it was...and I told him 'it's ok, I can handle it, thanks' because honestly I thought he was with the students. Then I saw him get ready to video a tandem, and I felt like such an idiot. I apologized to him later for blowing him off, but it's also happened that someone gave me packing advice that I thought was odd, but I admit I don't know everything, so I consider what he's saying and think about trying it. Then I see him gearing up for a solo on a student rig.

How do I keep from getting into these situations?

I just point blank ask. If I don't know who they are, I will introduce myself and then they will in return. Then I ask how many jumps and what discipline. I think it is rude to give advice with out first introducing yourself and then say would you mind if I gave a little advice on (insert subject).

Someone with a student rig may just be renting for the time being althought not usual.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[Skydivesg 7]

Those of us who really care about sharing our experiences and knowledge won't be offended when someone we're trying to help asks us about our credentials. You not only have the right, you have the responsibility to know from whom you're getting and taking advise. If the guy's feathers get ruffled then he was more interested in his own ego than actually helping you. The rest of us won't mind.
Just ask.
Sandy

[waltappel 1]

I can understand where you are coming from on that.

"Can I show you a couple of things that might help you with your pack job?"

"Depends--how many jumps do you have?"

That does seem like it's being kind of blunt toward someone who is offering help, yet if you are going to get some sort of instruction in any kind of risk-related activity, you really should know the person's credentials.

How about, "What is your background with this?"

If you don't like their answer, "I'll pass, but thankyou for offering.

Walt

[Vectracide 0]

Hey Jaye, I have had, and more than likely everyone at one time or another, this same experiences. Now, if you are at a DZ where you know at least one person, you can always ask them about the person in question afterwards. That will give you the abitliy to either hold their advice to heart, or discard it. If you are at a DZ where you know no one, you can always ask the DZO, or S&TA about either the person, or the advice if you don't feel comfortable. If you tell them that you dont know the skill and level of someone and you recieved advice from that person, they will understand and not judge you. If you are talking about Snohomish in particular, or Mt.Vernon even please feel free to ask me any questions you have and I will give you the straight up truth. That includes the 3 hardest words for some to say, especially in our sport, "I don't know". PM me if you want my contact info.

------------------------------

Controlled and Deliberate.....

[DA50 0]

This sport is filled with people who offer unwanted advice. I think that that is the worst part of the whole experience. When I am confronted with somebody imparting their wisdom on me, I smile and say “thanks”.

[tdog 0]

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How do I keep from getting into these situations?

I guess I look at it differently... Someone with 1 or 10,000 jumps might know something I don't... So I will hear what anyone has to say - and decide for myself if I agree with what they are saying or if their idea merits further research - and I accept nothing on face value without further justification.

If I question the advice, I won't ask, "how many jumps do you have" - instead, I might ask, "where did you learn that" or "how do you know that to be true" or "have you tested your theory" or "I was taught X, why do you think Y is better?" These questions might cause both people to learn something, and pre-qualify the information so you can do further research... If someone with less experience than I, maybe 20 jumps, just comes back from a Brian Germain canopy class, it would be foolish for me not to hear what they have to say. They might not disclose their training if I don't ask, and if I just ask how many jump they have, I might never learn that they just sat with a canopy guru...

It is foolish to think that someone with less jumps than you might not have tidbits of great info... I learn so much from people with less jumps than I... And more jumps than I...

The key is to hear what they have to say, to think about it, and to determine how to qualify if what was said is possibly correct - without just believing, "he has 1000 jumps more than I, what he says is gospel."

Some people think the worst part of this sport is the "unsolicited advice."

I think the worst part of this sport is people who don't keep their minds and ears open and consider the wealth of knowledge that is out there and think that they can't learn from others will less experience or statistics - or believe that jump numbers alone make someone's words more accurate than other people's words...

[darkwing 5]

ask your instructor who you should pay attention to, and ignore everyone else. Jump numbers and experience level as told to you are not sufficient qualifiers for sound advice. There are people with thousands of jumps that you would not want to take advice from. This has been true my entire 30+ years in the sport at many dropzones.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Miami 0]

Excellent advice...I agree 100%.

Miami

[popsjumper 2]

Both Skydivesg and Tdog said it best....

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Icon134 0]

tdog and skydiveg said exactly what I believe as well...

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[lisamariewillbe 1]

WOW very good post

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[penniless 0]

The 50 jump wonder giving advice on turbulence may be a professional meteorologist.

The 50 jump wonder giving advice on the FARs may be an FAA inspector.

The 50 jump wonder giving advice on hypoxia may be an aviation medical examiner.

[calledisrael 0]

from the other side, i thought i would add another point about this. recently when i had to do a recurrency class at a new dropzone, as we walked around and did different things, my instructor made a point of introducing me to different people. this is ___ and you can listen to him. sometimes it was on specific issues. this is ____ and he knows alot about canopy piloting, so watch him on that. it is helpful to me as a student to understand who i should listen to, and i think has developed a sort of cool culture at that (fairly large) dz where lots of people *think* they should be listened to... they still may come up and say stuff, but i know who he told me i can really listen to - and it will help me build good relationships.

life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all.
(helen keller)

[airtwardo 7]

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The 50 jump wonder giving advice on turbulence may be a professional meteorologist.

The 50 jump wonder giving advice on the FARs may be an FAA inspector.

The 50 jump wonder giving advice on hypoxia may be an aviation medical examiner.

***



The 50 jump wonder giving advice...

Might just also be a D.G.I.T. looking to fill his load!




Keep in mind that ultimately you and you alone are responsible for your own safety.

You may want to cross reference any and all 'advise' you receive from someone you don't know and trust,
with someone you do.

I guess I'm at a point in my career that I don't just arbitrarily walk up to offer unsolicited advise.

If I do see someone obviously struggling with something, or doing something I deem to be dangerous...I will introduce myself, basically explain my experience and make suggestions.

I also add that they may want to also check with their...instructor, rigger, girlfriend's mother...for further information, depending on the situation....

...that their mileage may vary and objects in the mirror are closer than they appear.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[gemini 0]

Never hesitate to ask someone their jump numbers if you think it is necessary. As has been pointed out, no one will mind and if their giving advice they really should know their stuff...

I was once asked to organize a 4-way with two visitors, a husband and wife. I asked them how many jumps they had so I would have an idea of what to plan for the jump. The woman said "about 300." I looked at the husband and he said "Enough."

I thought it was a little odd, but he did have a few manufacturer's patches on his black jumpsuit.

Boy was I embarrassed when I found out later he had been with one of the national 4-way teams. Now whenever I see him, I ask "And what were your jump numbers again?" He just laughs about it.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

All good advice, thank you!

I know I know someone with 50 jumps *might* have better info than someone with 1000, but is that the rule or the exception? I think by far we'll find it's the exception. -Now if I do happen along an FAA examiner that has 50 jumps, I'll ask him for FAR advice. Until then, I'll stick with Charlie who's got about 2700 & change.

I was proud of myself for finally reaching the moment when I can say 'Sh*t, that doesn't look right. Can you check this for me?' instead of 'No thanks, I got it...' <--I did that the last time I changed out my risers and really *&$%'d stuff up. Fortunately I could put my 'I can do it myself' attitude aside long enough to ask for help...problem was I was asking peole that knew less than me.

Now I have an idea of how to ask -"Oh cool, I haven't seen that before, are you a rigger?"



I have tried in the past to quietly ask someone else on the DZ "Hey, do you know that guy? He was telling me to do this to stow my lines...?"

"Yeah Jaye, he's a master rigger."



"Excuse me sir, can you show me how to do that thing again?"

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[Skydivesg 7]

Tdog has made some very good points. One example is my son who is just 20 years old.

If he were to see someone having trouble with or making a mistake while packing and goes to offer some advice, the person might look at his age and think "what could he possibly know?" and dismiss him out of hand.
Without asking something like "how did you come up with that idea?" or "how did you learn that method?' that person would not know that my son grew up on a DZ and traveled the country with me visiting all the major DZ's and boogies. They woudn't know that I taught him how to pack when he was nine years old and that he became our team packer when he was twelve. They wouldn't know that over the years he sat in on and participated in numerous canopy courses and packing seminars by Brian Germain, Scott Miller, Shannon Pilcher, Jay Moledski among others and has more than 5000 pack jobs with no malfunctions. They wouldn't know that he graduated AFF in a day and a half at age 17 and got his A license a week later and now has almost 800 jumps. They wouldn't know that he has 6-7 hours of coached tunnel time by world class coaches and is an avid 4-way competitor. They wouldn't know that he has witnessed more than his share of serious skydiving accidents and because of his extensive exposure to the sport is mature beyond his age. They wouldn't know that like his dad he has a burning desire to share his knowledge with those who appear to be struggling.
Instead they'd look at his pimples and his peach fuzz that he shaves every couple of days and think to themselves "Who the hell does he think he is?"

I've taught him that people will always be a bit reluctant to take advice from someone so young and he understands and accepts that reality. It was interesting to witness him when he was just 14 giving packing advice to a 20 year veteran who was having terrible off heading and hard openings at Eloy. The guy was very nice but just looked down at him and said "how do you know all this?" My son explained his backround. Not knowing what to say the guy then looked at his jumping buddy who happened to know me and our history. He just looked back at his buddy and said "I'd listen to him if I were you." His openings improved dramatically.

I've taught my son that we have an obligation to share our knowledge with others for the sake of our sport. I've also taught him to be very respectful of peoples' feelings and have cautioned him on coming across as arrogant. And I've taught him that no matter how much you have to offer, some people's egos just won't allow them to accept advice regardless of your age or knowledge. On the other hand I've taught him to be receptive to other peoples advice and then decide for himself on what to do with it.

I encourage everyone to be receptive to new and different information. Then decide how, if at all, to use that information. If your not sure, discuss it with someone with whom you would trust your life.

People don't care how much you know till they know how much you care.
Be safe
Sandy

[Ron 10]

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I want to know their qualifications before I consider their advice and act upon it, but how do you ask that? Especially at a new DZ, or when you've never met this visiting super star?

Just ask. It never hurts. It kinda pisses me off when I ask and I get an answer like, "Enough, Plenty, More than you, Jump numbers don't matter....Ect."

No one should be offended if asked, or ashamed of telling someone how many jumps you have, or what qualifications you have.

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I made a really dumb mistake a while ago...some guy was giving me spotting advice or something I think it was...and I told him 'it's ok, I can handle it, thanks' because honestly I thought he was with the students

You should not feel stupid about that. He didn't offer, and you didn't ask about his experience.

There are a few types of people who give advice:

1. Those that are qualified. Say an AFF I talking about emergency procedures, or a PRO rated jumper talking about spotting.

2. Those that know. Maybe these folks don't have "Qualifications", but they have experince. Think about some fun jumper with freefall skills above any AFF "I".

3. Those that are just plain wrong...These people can be qualified and experienced, or not...But they can still be wrong as hell. Think an old time AFF "I" that teaches 45 degrees for exit seperation.

4. The one I hate most. Those that read something about it somewhere, but have not real idea about WHAT, or WHY. They just parrot advice they heard or read with no idea about why. Most times these folks are just trying to inflate themselves.

You will not know who they are or where they fit until later.

But always ask. And then verify the info from someone you trust as a subject matter expert.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[NelKel 0]

3. Those that are just plain wrong...These people can be qualified and experienced, or not...But they can still be wrong as hell. Think an old time AFF "I" that teaches 45 degrees for exit seperation. <<

4. The one I hate most. Those that read something about it somewhere, but have not real idea about WHAT, or WHY. They just parrot advice they heard or read with no idea about why. Most times these folks are just trying to inflate themselves.<<<


HA! HA.

Boy I think we have all met a few.

Acme, I just listen to what is being said and I can tell if it is usfull or not. I never bother asking experience level, cause I'm the one who is going to decide if I'm going to use the info or not.

It dosn't matter how many jumps they have, see Ron's post #4. If a 100 jump guy who has been working as a packer for 2 years at a BIG DZ, says to me "You should double stow that", and I have 500 jumps on my rig packed the way I packed it. Guess what I'm going to do? You just have to learn how to filter out the useless info.

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[bob.dino 1]

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4. The one I hate most. Those that read something about it somewhere, but have not real idea about WHAT, or WHY. They just parrot advice they heard or read with no idea about why. Most times these folks are just trying to inflate themselves.

It only takes one word to sort out these folks: "why?" Those that really know their subject will be able to go into depth on the reasons behind the way things are done.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

Dang...think I'd like to meet your son. Sounds like a handy guy to have as a friend!

Thanks




I promise I'm NOT bringing up this story for gender biases, just because it's funny and I just remembered it now...

I am at a new DZ (new to me). I only know about 3 people at this place. I'm packing my tri, and I'm chatting with a rigger there about how my right brake line fired on deploy twice in a row, and I hadn't thought I had stowed them any differently.

We were talking about the brake lines, and how the result was just a nice solid pull to the left, but no twists. Then I mentioned to him the last time I had line twist; just at that moment a group of jumpers dropped their rigs on the floor to pack as I was saying, "I opened with 3 full line twists. That just bums me out."

One of the jumpers walks over to me, puts a hand on my shoulder and procedes to give me a pretty lengthy definition of what line twists are, then tells me "...then you see you just need to grab your risers and just kick and kick and you'll get out of them, sweetie. You don't need to be afraid of those."

-I said 'Yes, I know that, but thank you!'
The one friend that was with me on the dz was there and kind of giggled. I felt my face getting red as I thought 'how could somebody think I don't know this...?' -it just caught me off guard and made me kind of embarrassed for the guy trying to give me advice about simple line twists...my friend told the guy 'Jaye knows what line twists are, man! She's had a few!' and starts laughing. this kid (VERY nice guy, but I just had to hide a smile) was still a student. It was unfortunately obvious that he thought I didn't know what I'm doing because I'm a girl.

I didn't bust his chops or anything; I don't think he meant to be condescending. He was just trying to be the 'big guy' and help the poor clueless little girl out. Nice kid; like I said I just told him thank you anyway. Poor guy!!

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[Ron 10]

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It only takes one word to sort out these folks: "why?" Those that really know their subject will be able to go into depth on the reasons behind the way things are done.

Not true. They respond with, "I read it on DZ.com", or , "I was told that by Clint". Even if they are wrong and have no clue, some will just not admit it. I can only guess it would make them feel weak or stupid.

My point is that some will think they "know" something just because they read it, and can recite it.

I had a student give me a lecture on the 45 degree rule. But, they could not answer questions on why it does not work. But they still acted like they knew what they were talking about.

Another great example is canopies....People all think they are qualified to jump what they are jumping. They can give references to articals and posts that confirm their ideas. But they don't understand aspect ratio, planeform...ect. But they think they "know" since they read something.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tr027 0]

Jaye,
I agree with Tdog's post. You shouldn't automatically qualify or disqualify someone's suggestion based solely on jump numbers, unless you're too tired(lazy?) to investigate the idea and decide for yourself. Not everyone continually and actively learns/researches/investigates the latest ideas as they progress through jump numbers. Many have big numbers, but are not motivated to learn more and thus also have a stagnated understanding and knowledge level.

Just my 2 cents, feel very free to leave it.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957