AADs Scare Me

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

Pardon me if I'm a bit of a control freak concerning issues that may determine my living or dying.

If you really want to do well on the living or dying thing, you would be wise to listen to the advice that you get, particularly from the likes of mjosparky and others who have been around this sport for a long time, have seen a lot of people come and go, and who have given back more to the sport than you'll ever know. They may not always say it in the kindest, gentlest way, but they are saying it for your own good.

Trust me when I say that you should listen more than you talk for quite a long time in this sport. That doesn't mean shut up completely, by all means ask questions, read manuals, make sure you understand everything that you want to understand. But remember that right now, you know next to nothing. In about 100 jumps, you will probably think you know everything. By the time you get to 1000 jumps (if you make it that far) you might actually know something but you'll realize how little you do know.

Open your eyes, open your ears, and open your mind. There's a lot to learn and a lot to absorb, and you will HAVE to find the right balance between being a control freak and trusting the people who are there to teach you, using proven instructional techniques and bringing their experience to bear in teaching you. You DON'T know better than them how to learn to skydive.

Don't try to learn it all before you go in for your first jump course. And for god's sake, don't try to learn to skydive on the internet.

[Zipp0 1]

Quote

Frankly, under a student canopy, even if your cypres fired at 150 feet I doubt very much the reserve would actually come out of the freebag and open up before you landed. Under a student canopy you probably wouldn't have enought airspeed to have the thing open....
.

Ok, now this helps. So, if my main is out, and the cypress fires, I have a two out? I was thinking it would cut-away the main automatically. Wow, that seems much less frightening.

And I understand what you mean about the air speed. Also (and this is pure ignorant speculation) landing with two out, one of which is a student canopy, might not be tragic. (?)

Zipp0

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Samurai136 0]

Quote

Quote

Scott, you list Maytown as your home DZ. Ask one of your instructors or a DZ rigger about your AAD concerns. I know, for a fact, there are numerous riggers at Maytown. You might even get to talk to 'Handsome Dave' himself...
.

I will, thanks. I just brought it up here because, you know, it's Sunday night....

Zipp0

Then I guess you have a whole week to digest these websites.

Airtec

Vigil

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Zipp0 1]

I've always asked lots of questions. When I was 5, I asked someone how many fish are in the ocean.

As it turned out, I am pretty smart today, as I got lots of answers that I wouldn't have if I would have kept quiet.

I can't wait to see the look on my instructors faces when I hit them up with a few the have never heard. It WILL happen....

Zipp0

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[BDashe 0]

a random fire at 150 is basically unheard of. Remember, they are set to 750 feet anyway. Only swoopers need to worry about anything like that, and that is at the most extreme end of swooping with 720s from 1000+ feet. This past summer I saw a student AAD fire when a heavy experienced jumped did some double front riser stuff to test the new canopy. just opened into a biplane and he landed without incedent. if stuff looks ugly, u can chop the main. AADs save lives, period. Im still really new to the sport, but i already know someone that would still be here if he had had one. I absolutely refuse to jump without one, and you should too, esp. before any kind of crazy low level stuff.

My $0.02

Brett


Edit: the previous firing incident was on a student cypress, not pro. it went off as designed at altitude.
also, as for being knocked out- no one plans on that, but if you get scared or slip, its the unforeseen that may have you hit your head on something on the way out.
"Professional skydivers stay on the ground while watching the non-professionals become professionals..." -Preacherman, ASC

Clear skies, stay safe

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[teason 0]

If it makes you feel better about having an AAD, in my 12 years of instructing, and having done several thousand IADs, I have seen many students saved by AADs.

I have never ever seen or even heard of an AAD misfire at 150 feet of a student.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[LisaH 0]

Only a student here, but I learned well from someone I just met that told me "don't over think it, just do it."

Be yourself!
MooOOooOoo

[Nightingale 0]

Well, are your odds better with two canopies out, or none?

[tiedye 0]

Quote

So, if my main is out, and the cypress fires, I have a two out? I was thinking it would cut-away the main automatically.

A good thing for you to do is make a list of all the things you are concerned about and bring it to your FJC. The FJC spends alot of time going over how to determine if you have a malfunction or not and what to do to fix "problems' including what to do with 2 canopies out (this is not always a good thing..more is not always better). It may touch on how an AAD works (it doesn't cut away your main, it deploys your reserve), but if they don't explain it to your satisfaction, have them address your questions at the end of the class.

I'm not sure how in depth your FJC will go into AADs- the one I took didn't go into it much because they want students to learn emergency procedures and not rely on a device to deploy the reserve for them. Alot of people are overwhelmed with their first jump, so the FJC drills in the stuff you really need to know to start and builds on the information on your subsequent jumps.

Don't try to overthink things, and don't expect to learn everything you will ever need to know about skydiving in the FJC. Alot of people have a hard enough time just getting out of the plane, so while you may be able to take in and retain alot of information, other people can't. There are many stories of students who do their first jump, perform maneuvers under canopy, land in the bowl but don't remember anything after leaving the plane. Don't stress yourself out, learn your EPs, ask questions and listen to your instructor, trust your gear....and have fun.

[karenmeal 0]

To start answering some of your questions:

http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2006SIM/SIM.htm

And go to the link that says you can download a PDF version. Start reading that. It should start to answer a lot of your questions and give you some back ground information.

Once you finish reading that, then you can start reading the owner's manuals for the gear that you will be jumping.

The first jump course is meant to teach you how to save your life. If you teach people much beyond that, they'll have trouble retaining information. So don't expect that every single question you can dream up will be answered. The goal of the class is not to trick the teacher with hard questions, but to let them teach you how to do things safely.

-Karen

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[billvon 3,031]

> a random fire at 150 is basically unheard of.

The only firing I have seen that low was from a jumper who landed about 100 yards from an airport radar installation. It's highly unlikely though, and the jumper still landed safely.

[billvon 3,031]

>Is this an unreasonable fear?

Nope. But some basics about AAD's:

1) They can both hurt you and help you. Modern AAD's (i.e. a Cypres 2) are much, much more likely to help you than to hurt you. If you avoid basic risk factors for AAD malfunctions (i.e. using a radio transmitter under canopy, landing next to a radar installation, pulling low, doing 720 front riser hooks with 2:1 loaded canopies, landing in water then jumping again without getting a repack, avoiding aircraft that pressurize) then your odds of it causing a problem are very, very low. Even people who do those things don't see problems very often.


2) As others have pointed out they do not cut away your main. An AAD that opens at 150 feet will likely just mean you land trailing a freebag. An AAD that opens right after you deploy will likely result in a two-out.

3) The primary utility of an AAD is not to protect you "if you get knocked out" although people like to say that. It is to open your reserve if you forget to pull. These no-pull incidents happen far, far more often than an AAD saving an incapacitated jumper. It's cooler for people to think they might get knocked out by someone else than to simply forget to pull, but experience has shown that that's probably why they will need one.

>I guess I'd just rather rely totally on myself than on a machine.

You rely on an aircraft to get you to altitude safely; a structural failure will generally kill you. (The "we can always get out" philosophy has been shown to not work very well.) You rely on a harness to not come apart during opening. So some amount of dependency is always going to be there.

That being said, the less dependency the better. Hence, the safest skydiver is a skydiver who a) does not need an AAD, b) uses one anyway and c) uses it within its limitations. That's true of a lot of things in the sport. An altimeter can be an important piece of equipment, especially when you are starting out - but the safest skydiver does not need one, and jumps with one anyway as a backup.

Is jumping without an AAD safe enough? Up to you to decide. I recommend them to all newer jumpers; they are very good at turning fatal mistakes into learning experiences.

[Dolph 0]

Quote

Pardon me if I'm a bit of a control freak concerning issues that may determine my living or dying.

I think as you get more time in the sport and more jumps, you'll find that there are a quite a few things you have mo, little or only partial control over in this sport. Many of these things can kill you.

Some are from mother nature and most in this category is remedied by staying on the ground in questionable weather. Then there's all the human factors - pilots that give you the ride is one. Exit separation - you can control how much time you give the group in front of you, but you have no guarantee about the ones that leave after you.

People will drift in freefall. Some, finding the "perfect head down" wasn't so perfect after all may invade your air space. Your own jump buddies may be too aggressive and give you a good boot to the head. And all the canopy related issues and on and on.

I gather attempting to remain in control of as many factors as possible is a good thing. It's just not realistic to expect control of all.

My point is that there are other things outside of your control that are more likely to kill you than an AAD misfire.

[AFFI 0]

Airbags scare me, but once and airbag saved my life...

[Scoop 0]

I understand your thinking. Whilst is designed to save us in silly situations (unconcious/lack of altitude awareness) the potential for it to go wrong are still there. Purely because it is there! Safest way to ensure it wont put you in bad position is to not have one, but then don't expect the benefits it can give if its not installed. If your happy with that, go with it. Fuck what anybody else says. Its your call.

I've got to get one until I'm B licence and I'm tempted to throw in the bin after that point, however early on in my skydiving timeline I'm going to be fooling around with mates of mine no doubt bumping in to each other. This is also a concern where I can see an AAD being advantageous, paticularly with the whopping level of protection offered by skydiving helmets *cough*

You got to weigh things up. I don't believe any electronic piece of equipment is going to operate perfectly 100% of the time and it sounds like neither do you, thats a reasonable belief.

99% of the time, as far as I'm aware (as stated by Walt), unless you meet the parameters needed it won't activate.

[Mike111 0]

Im not to keen jumping with an AAD after I get my B licence... i like to rely on myself personally but at this stage when we are both learning and are either just come off or on student status i think one is vital. Just switch it on and forget about it... and if you want, pretend in your mind that you do not have one but always keep ti there just in case you fuck up.

i see the benefits of them, but being dependant on one... well thats wrong.

[fpritchett64 0]

I wonder how many AADs are in service worldwide? That would give you a pretty good idea of reliability.

Zipp0

They're USPA required on all student and tandem rigs, this should give you some idea of how reliable they are. If you consider how many tandem and student jumps are done yearly worldwide. I haven't heard of any tandem cypres or student cypres misfires reported, has anyone else?

[dragon2 2]

Quote

Here's the thing - If I screw up badly, or have a freakish mal and go in, well, that's how it goes. But in my mind I can see myself under a good canopy, happily floating along, and then WHAM, cypress fires low. For the next few seconds I would be extremely pissed.

It's probably a stupid fear, and I'm sure as soon as I exit the plane I will never think about it.

Zipp0

Even IF your AAD fires in the situation you describe, which is not bloody likely, chances are good you'll be able to land the resulting 2 canopies or main-canopy-plus-freebag just fine.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[DiggerDan 0]

AADs scare YOU?

People who have not jumped yet, but plan to become a student and make statements like the following and draw conclusions without knowledge, scare ME.

Quote

As a student on IAD, what is going to knock me out? Unless I hit a bird, I think I'm pretty much golden. Also, I can control things that might knock me out, but I can't control that AAD.

Quote

Here's the thing - If I screw up badly, or have a freakish mal and go in, well, that's how it goes. But in my mind I can see myself under a good canopy, happily floating along, and then WHAM, cypress fires low. For the next few seconds I would be extremely pissed.

Quote

So, if my main is out, and the cypress fires, I have a two out? I was thinking it would cut-away the main automatically. Wow, that seems much less frightening.

Quote

I can't wait to see the look on my instructors faces when I hit them up with a few the have never heard. It WILL happen....

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

Zippo,

You've heard a lot of good things here. Some of it harsh, but not inaccurate.

One fact of the matter is, if you jump in the U.S., at a USPA Drop Zone, you are REQUIRED by the BSRs to have an AAD and RSL on the Student Rig you'll be jumping... regardless of whether you're doing the Static Line, IAD or AFF progression.

Talk to your instructors about your questions, but realize there will be an AAD on your student rig. Also remember, you don't have to skydive and any DZ you show up on, doesn't have to let you skydive.

ZippO, I haven't heard your concerns first hand, so I take them with a grain of salt, but what scares me is if you do get into the sport is you may wind up being one of those people who talk others out of (or try to) having an AAD for irrational and uneducated reasons... I've seen it happen.

I have friends that are dead because they DIDN'T have an AAD.

I think you need to learn more about how AADs really work... just my 2 cents.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

OK, first off I am just starting out in the sport. The thing is, as I near my first jump I keep getting an image in my mind of the AAD firing for no good reason at 150 ft. AGL. I just HATE introducing a machine that I cannot control into the formula that saves my life every jump. Is this an unreasonable fear?

I guess I'd just rather rely totally on myself than on a machine.

Zipp0

No, that is not an unreasonable fear, although it is highly unlikely you will have an AAD misfire close to the ground on student, novice or rookie (< 1500 jumps) equipment.

Until you complete the requirements for your USPA A license (assuming you are jumping in US), you can opt to jump without an AAD.

There are pros and cons to using any piece of safety equipment. They can save your life if used within operating parameters, or they can take your life if operated outside operating parameters.

Remember, this is a sport where on any given jump you can do everything right and still die.

For Great Deals on Gear

[lisamariewillbe 1]

You may not even like skydiving. No one can tell before they jump for the first time IF they will like it. I was so scared for my first jump and didnt want to go, but it was on my list of things to do. I started crying during the video with Bill Booth when the ambulance drives on the airport... thats how freaked out I was. Now I jump as often as finances allow.

On the other side, I have seen people who think they will love it and spend money on the whole FJC and AFF only to find out they almost piss their pants, freak out under canopy and never come back. Im sure the more experienced people then me have seen it also

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

You may not even like skydiving. No one can tell before they jump for the first time IF they will like it. I was so scared for my first jump and didnt want to go, but it was on my list of things to do. I started crying during the video with Bill Booth when the ambulance drives on the airport... thats how freaked out I was. Now I jump as often as finances allow.

On the other side, I have seen people who think they will love it and spend money on the whole FJC and AFF only to find out they almost piss their pants, freak out under canopy and never come back. Im sure the more experienced people then me have seen it also

I know of at least one DZ where the DZO requires all tandem students to take a FJC in accordance with the (then) IAF student progression program. He said that the jumpers that are most likely to stay in the sport tend to be people who figured they would try it only once.

For Great Deals on Gear

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Quote

He said that the jumpers that are most likely to stay in the sport tend to be people who figured they would try it only once.

Really? Cool beans, then again I call skydiving a bitter sweet experience... bitter in the fact that I am sick of ramen noodles that are eaten all the time because I am saving for my next jump

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Orange1 0]

The reason AADs scare(d) you is because you didn't understand how they work - i.e. you thought it would cut the main away. You need to learn how the gear all works and as has been said there is a lot you need to trust - not just backup devices but things that will make the difference between life and death. You need to trust your gear. This is almost the first thing we were told on FJC. The primary reason for this is that they don't want you under a malfunction hesitating to pull your reserve in case you get a mal on that too... but we know that can happen.

Quote

I guess I'd just rather rely totally on myself than on a machine

...but you need to rely on others, like the rigger who packs your reserve. And for your first few jumps at least you will be jumping parachutes that someone else has packed. Are you happy with that?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.