Orange1 0
HeatherB 0
QuoteAs a student on IAD, what is going to knock me out? Unless I hit a bird, I think I'm pretty much golden.
Maybe my little story will help you understand how things don't always go as planned.
My first IAD was not "golden." My pilot chute bridle wrapped itself firmly around my arm and I was in freefall with nothing else out. (I can laugh about it now. Good times!
)
In my case, I figured out what was happening and I unwrapped the damn thing from my arm and the main deployed fine.
On the other side of the coin, a few months later the same thing happened to another IAD student there but she had no idea what was happening and then her FXC fired. She was definitely an AAD save. (I'm pretty sure she never jumped again).
So even on an IAD you're not necessarily "golden."
And as someone else mentioned, many AAD saves are people who have lost altitude awareness. There are far fewer saves involving people getting knocked out.
I have a Cypres in case I completely screw up and am low with nothing out. I'm not delusional enough to think I'm immune to making mistakes. I'm not cocky enough to say "I only have it in case someone knocks me out."
--Heather
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Mind you, the argument is moot, as it's only us old farts who feel comfortable jumping without them these days.
The argument that isn't moot, and that students must be encouraged to consider, is whether it is very likely that there might be many more of you old farts around these days had more of you decided to use AAD's on a regular basis.
skybytch 273
QuoteAlso there's the scenario of a malfunctioning main on your IAD/SL....let's say you cutaway and have a hard time getting the reserve handle out, can't find it, or simply brain lock...it sure would be nice to have an AAD in that scenario.
AFAIK, that's not what AAD's are designed to do. It is what the RSL was designed to do.
Which is why I have both on my rig - the Cypres in case I screw up and go way too low in freefall, the RSL in case my main malfunctions and I screw up by cutting away low and don't immediately pull my reserve.
QuoteQuoteQuoteits unlikely but its happened.
My personal feeling is that there is far more bang for the buck in jumpers keeping themselves out of situations where an AAD may save their life.
Walt
It's not about the money.
For many starting out in the sport, money *is* a huge factor. I think the kind of jumping a person does should figure into their decision on whether to jump with an AAD or not. Freefliers are quite often in positions where they do not have visual contact with the ground, yet are moving toward it at very high speed. That raises the odds of losing altitude awareness.
For someone who is doing competitive RW, where they are focusing very intensely on grips and slots, they too can easily lose track of altitude.
For people doing large formation RW, even though they plan their dives very carefully to avoid collisions, more people in the air = more opportunities for freefall collisions.
I think there are a lot of people out there who would be just fine or even better off without an AAD if they bought an audible altimeter instead and spent the rest of the money on jumping so they could stay current.
Walt
QuoteQuote
Mind you, the argument is moot, as it's only us old farts who feel comfortable jumping without them these days.
The argument that isn't moot, and that students must be encouraged to consider, is whether it is very likely that there might be many more of you old farts around these days had more of you decided to use AAD's on a regular basis.
Could be. I used AADs for years (Sentinel and Cypres) but recently got fed up with the high maintenance costs and inconvenience of the Cypres and decided to jump without an AAD. If I do buy another one, it won't be a Cypres.
Walt
Zipp0 1
Quote
My first IAD was not "golden." My pilot chute bridle wrapped itself firmly around my arm and I was in freefall with nothing else out. (I can laugh about it now. Good times!
That's why I said "pretty much golden!"
Good job on figuring it out. I hope I am together enough that first jump to do as well in a bad situation. We'll see....
Zipp0
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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.
peek 21
QuoteThese forums are here for sharing opinions, information, and good healthy debate, as far as I know. Why does it seem to me that so many experienced jumpers want to just say "shut the hell up, noob"?
Unfortunately, it's because that's what they do here.
You have probably figured out by now that modern microprocessor/solid state pressure sensor based AAD's are so reliable that they allow their owners to be almost completely uneducated about them and to rely on them to a dangerous degree.
The companies that make them actually encourage that, i.e. "set it and forget it".
You, not having learned this about your skydiving gear by instructors who (may) have this attitude, have questioned the reliability of AAD's, which is good. Everyone should.
Now that you are educated about modern AAD's (the hard way!) you can relax a bit about them.
Ron 10
QuoteAs a student on IAD, what is going to knock me out?
You would be surprised.
QuoteAlso, I can control things that might knock me out, but I can't control that AAD.
While I kinda agree with your thoughts. A good number of dead people thought they could control everything as well.
Hell I HATE AAD dependance. But chances are they do more good than harm....And at your level even more so.
I applaud your desire to take every precaution to avoid the need for an AAD....but wear one.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Zipp0 1
Quote
The companies that make them actually encourage that, i.e. "set it and forget it".
Ha. Just like the Ron Popeil Rotisserie Oven! {TM} Sweet. Well, with a catchy slogan like that, how can I refuse??!!
Then again, I may have to let the RONCO folks know about the possible dilution of their trademark...
Zipp0
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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.
pjc 0
Hey Zipp0,
What do you think about rsl's??
What do you think about rsl's??
YOU DID NOT JUST DO THAT!!
you have a sick sense of humor PJC
is
Zipp0 1
QuoteHey Zipp0,
What do you think about rsl's??
Ladies and gentlemen, there is a hijacker on board.
I'll say this anyway - I don't know enough yet to decide one way or the other. The upside seems to be faster deployment and less EP 'workload.' The negative side that I see is, what if I am unstable? With no RSL you would have a moment to get stable before deploying. I know I may be waaaaaay off on this, and I understand my ignorance. So don't think I am some fool who thinks he has it all figured out.
I am just a fool with very little figured out.
Zipp0
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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.
HeatherB 0
Thanks, I completely forgot about RSL's. I have not had one in a long time. Surely he would have one on his student jumps!
billvon 3,044
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>I don't know enough yet to decide one way or the other.
An approach that will serve you well while learning to skydive.
>The negative side that I see is, what if I am unstable?
Reserves are designed to open while unstable. The Racer manual explicitly states that the reserve should be deployed head-high rather than belly-to-earth - and you just happen to be head-high right after a cutaway.
Two people died last summer at Rantoul because they waited too long between cutting away and pulling their reserves. Could they not find the reserve handle? Did they want to 'get stable' first? Did they simply lose track of altitude? Hard to say (since we can't ask them) but it's a pretty safe bet that a working RSL would have prevented their deaths.
RSL's are pretty simple backup devices, and for most newer jumpers, do far more good than harm. I recommend all jumpers use them at least until they have a few cutaways; they will then have a better basis on which to decide.
An approach that will serve you well while learning to skydive.
>The negative side that I see is, what if I am unstable?
Reserves are designed to open while unstable. The Racer manual explicitly states that the reserve should be deployed head-high rather than belly-to-earth - and you just happen to be head-high right after a cutaway.
Two people died last summer at Rantoul because they waited too long between cutting away and pulling their reserves. Could they not find the reserve handle? Did they want to 'get stable' first? Did they simply lose track of altitude? Hard to say (since we can't ask them) but it's a pretty safe bet that a working RSL would have prevented their deaths.
RSL's are pretty simple backup devices, and for most newer jumpers, do far more good than harm. I recommend all jumpers use them at least until they have a few cutaways; they will then have a better basis on which to decide.
Zipp0 1
As a new jumper who may very well be crapping his pants during the jump, I can definitely see the benefit of an RSL and AAD. Locking up in a mal situation is probably much more likely for me, and backups could definitely save my life.
I learned in the military - the safety measures we use today are written in the blood of those who went before us.
Zipp0
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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.
I learned in the military - the safety measures we use today are written in the blood of those who went before us.
Zipp0
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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.
QuoteThere are times when I jump that I choose to not turn on my AAD. If I am getting out low (less than 3,000) I will usually leave it turned off. I'm pretty confident about my ability to exit a plane without getting myself knocked unconscious, so I don't really worry about that.
What is the benefiet in that? I am pretty confident that I wont knock myself out on a solo but I turn my AAD on anyway. What good does it do to leave it off? Are you planning in pulling under 1500? Cause I think thats what you'ld have to do to get it to fire. Why not just adjust your pull altitude and leave it on all the time?
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
billvon 3,044
>What good does it do to leave it off?
I've been on a few jumps where I was very glad to not have an AAD. On one such jump, me and the other person without an AAD landed fine; the other two people landed hard and almost didn't walk away from the jump.
I've been on a few jumps where I was very glad to not have an AAD. On one such jump, me and the other person without an AAD landed fine; the other two people landed hard and almost didn't walk away from the jump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Errant freeflyers - especially young errant freeflyers - wander into everybody's airspace.
Maybe the errant freeflyer exited another airplane, flying higher ...
Anything is possible ....
I assumed (maybe incorrectly) he was talking about "freefall" rather than under canopy (given that this is a discussion about AADs)... an IAD is like an SL jump right?