krkeenan 0 #1 June 30, 2004 Back in the "Old Days", the Sentinal AAD was heralded as a great safety device. It was a great improvement over existing units, and did result in many saves. There were some inadvertant deployments, however, and when it came to using the device on experienced loads, many people thought it was a bad idea. The idea of a reserve deployment in a multi-way exit, or in a formation with people possibly above it, seemed dangerous. This may be where we are with the current model of the Vigil AAD now in use. My opinion is that there have been enough unexplained events with the device to not want one on a jump with me. I'm sure others have opinions, so this may be an interesting discussion. Kevin Keenan SCR 3022 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #2 June 30, 2004 It's a high-stakes, low frequency arena that's hard to enter and secure a good reptutation. We know of something like two unexplained events? Four? I'm not saying this doesn't damn Vigil; I'm only saying it's an extremely small number. But the number of no-pull / low-pull fatalities we're trying to prevent is also a low number. And to get there we have to install a lot of AADs (at no small cost) and make a lot of jumps. Since I plan to make a lot of jumps and expect to need my AAD very rarely, if ever (when something totally nasty happens) and I can't tell for sure whether it's going to work in that situation, I went with what I'm comfortable with: a Cypres just like the one I had all through my student status. Do I think the Cypres is better? Yes. Do I have any proof? Not really. What I have is confidence. Part of it was the student Cypres I wore (that never had to do anything for me, thank goodness) and part is SSK's website's explanation of some of the details of the 4-year check, which makes me think they are 100% serious about preventing all avoidable failures. So if other new jumpers are like me, that's how Vigil can get to them: have a Vigil in their student rig throughout their training, and convince them that Vigil is torture-tested and followed up, every unit. I should mention SSK has their own recent confidence issue, though, with the displays winking out on some of the Cypres-2s. How history shows they handled that will impact my confidence in the Cypres-2 AAD, when/should I need to move up. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #3 July 1, 2004 I got no problem with the Vigil, on my back or on a load with me. Cypres has the market. With all the risks in skydiving that a Cypres can do NOTHING about - I think most people think too much. If you buy the thing - whether cypres or vigil - expecting it to work, AND to need it to work - I don't think you should be jumping. I'll be taking my cypres out of my rig for my trip to the Eloy holiday boogie. Too many airports - too many explanations. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #4 July 2, 2004 QuoteMy opinion is that there have been enough unexplained events with the device to not want one on a jump with me. How will you know who's jumping with one? Will you conduct a gear inspection before each jump? If you are concerned about an AAD fire you're better off doing solos. AADs are not infallible no matter what brand you choose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #5 July 2, 2004 QuoteHow will you know who's jumping with one? Will you conduct a gear inspection before each jump? If you are concerned about an AAD fire you're better off doing solos. AADs are not infallible no matter what brand you choose I know of ONE CYPRES fire that was not low in 12 years... I know of 3 Vigil fires in less than a year."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egons 0 #6 July 2, 2004 Your point is??? Do you know of all the incidents that have occured with Airtec's products - whether it be on the ground or in the air? You seem to bash the Vigil every opportunity you have. I personally know of a Cypres that misfired on the ground while the main was being packed - any explanations for that? Just because you do not know of all the incidents certainly does not put you in the drivers seat to inform the dz.com skydivers of which is now safer - that is your personal opinion. However I encourage you to phone Kim at Vigil USA and she would be more than happy to clarify any misunderstanding you may have with regard to the product. In closing I highly doubt two of the most reputable container/harness manufacturers would endorse this product if it was deemed to be unsafe - Bill Booth is first and foremost all about safety. The fact that I work for RWS has no bearing on this either - certainly by the interest and orders shown by skydivers worldwide this competitive AAD is here for the long haul. You may not have Vigils confidence yet, but I am sure you will learn to appreciate it has a place in our market. Without competition you have very little to drive anyone or any manufacturer to innovate.... hence the fact we have now the worlds safest tandem system - the Sigma! Just my thoughts... "Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #7 July 2, 2004 QuoteDo you know of all the incidents that have occured with Airtec's products - whether it be on the ground or in the air? I know of more Vigil fires that CYPRES fires...One year vs 12. Easy math. QuoteYou seem to bash the Vigil every opportunity you have No I ask questions...bashing is different. QuoteI personally know of a Cypres that misfired on the ground while the main was being packed - any explanations for that? I know of FOUR Vigils that hav had ground fires and ONE in air fire that the company is ignoring and will not respond to questions about. Also you can put a Vigil in a rig with a SL but only if the loop des not go through the cutter? What kind of BS is that? QuoteJust because you do not know of all the incidents certainly does not put you in the drivers seat to inform the dz.com skydivers of which is now safer - that is your personal opinion. And last I checked its a free country and I can have opinons all day long....Cool huh? QuoteHowever I encourage you to phone Kim at Vigil USA and she would be more than happy to clarify any misunderstanding you may have with regard to the product. The company has refused to talk about the DeLand fire so far...next great idea? QuoteThe fact that I work for RWS has no bearing on this either I disagree. You don't have to agree cool country huh? Quotecertainly by the interest and orders shown by skydivers worldwide this competitive AAD is here for the long haul. The Nova was really popular also...for a while. QuoteWithout competition you have very little to drive anyone or any manufacturer to innovate.... hence the fact we have now the worlds safest tandem system - the Sigma! Oh I agree....Competition is good, but RELIABILITY is better. Vigil has yet to prove to be reliable. They have had some serious issues and ignored some incidents (In air fire in DeLand at 3 grand), had some really bad answers to others (Terry didn't replace the battery correctly), and some really stupid sugestions (You can put it into a rig with a SL but not so that it would work). The Vigil has a long road ahead of it to be considered, in my eyes at least, as equal to the CYPRES. Oh, and I do agree the Sigma is the standard in saftey...And I feel that way about MOST of RWS products..But even a few of the early Skyhooks were built wrong correct? Does that mean that the Skyhook or a Vigil is bad? Nope, but it does mean that new products have new problems and you would be foolish to think otherwise. New products have a way of killing people."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egons 0 #8 July 2, 2004 I do agree with plenty of what you have to say, but we could carry on debating this issue and we will be both right and wrong - thats the great thing about having your own opinion! As for the misfire at altitude - I know the individual that this happended to and believe me Vigil USA did not chose to ignore it - quite the opposite in fact. I invite you to write/speak with the staff at Vigil as I am sure they will be able to shed more light on this matter. As for the Skyhook - yes we have had modifications after extensive testing and we keep learning each and every day... the Skyhook has not put anyone is harms way, and if the Skyhook failed in testing the worst case was a normal RSL deployment. I am extremely big on safety and the Skyhook project is something I believe in and mark my words - it will become an industry safety device that comes setup standard on your system just like each and every container is now Cypres ready. I do enjoy reading you question individuals of their opinions, and I am always for a good debate. As for the country being cool - your damn right there and I am not trying to attack you personally Hell, I have only had a AAD in my Micron for one year now - never did jump with one before and would still jump without one if I had too. "Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #9 July 2, 2004 QuoteAs for the misfire at altitude - I know the individual that this happended to and believe me Vigil USA did not chose to ignore it - quite the opposite in fact They have publicly kept quiet about it and NONE of the SB they have released cover it. QuoteAs for the Skyhook - yes we have had modifications after extensive testing and we keep learning each and every day... the Skyhook has not put anyone is harms way, and if the Skyhook failed in testing the worst case was a normal RSL deployment. From your own PSB#20031203:Quote Although a lot of care was taken to insure Skyhooks were properly sewn to the bridle at Relative Workshop, one improperly sewn Skyhook did get through, and was caught by a rigger at assembly. Make sure that the Skyhook is sewn to the reserve freebag bridle correctly, with the pointed end of the hook facing toward the bag. If the Skyhook were sewn on the bridle facing the wrong way, a reserve pilot chute in tow would result if the reserve were pulled in response to a main total. (This pilot chute in tow could be cleared by pulling the yellow tab to release the RSL.) A system that would total if used is NOT putting anyone in harms way? The only fix to that total is to perform an emergency procedure that NO ONE would of thought of while they were still at terminal. Now I like RWS, and it was ONE incident. But this is an example of why I like RWS..They had an issue and they jumped on it FAST. They didn't try and hide anything and were very forth comming with any information. I don't feel that same level of attention has come from Vigil...It took SEVERAL occurances for them to admit to a problem, one answer was really bad (Terry pinching a cable?), they have still not disscussed the in air fire in DeLand, the PSB they released had a really stupid suggestion of putting the unit in a SL rig but bypassing the loop around the cutter thereby making the whole thing useless. See the difference? RWS acted fast...Vigil did not Now I do understand that RWS can take a small publicity hit where a new company can't, but saftey was compromised while Vigil waited. I really hope that Vigil can recover from this. A second AAD on the market with quality features will only help the skydivers, but to blindly accept that it is safe with the problems they have had is foolish at best. Like I said I have nothing against them...But I also have no loyalty TO them either...My only concern is saftey. Right now I have my doubts that they are safe and nothing would make me happier in this case to be wrong. If you want to continue this in person I will be in DeLand Sat-Tue 7/3-7/6"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LannerFalcon 0 #10 July 5, 2004 You've obviously got shares in Vigil!!!!!!!!!Not biased at all...'phone Kim at vigil'. I appreciate your looking after your mates, but Ron makes sounder points, Cypres for me!............................................................. Break now Jester! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
friflaj 0 #11 July 9, 2004 QuoteI know of FOUR Vigils that hav had ground fires and ONE in air fire that the company is ignoring and will not respond to questions about. I just shot off a question about it to AAD and got a prompt reply with a full explanation for the 4 ground misfires and the static line air misfire. QuoteThe company has refused to talk about the DeLand fire so far...next great idea? They're still investigating that incident. Any info they would release while that investigation is ongoing would be speculation at this point. If they speculated and another reason was found, they'd be flogged for that too. QuoteOh I agree....Competition is good, but RELIABILITY is better. Vigil has yet to prove to be reliable. They have had some serious issues and ignored some incidents (In air fire in DeLand at 3 grand), Yes, they've had serious issues and have seriously addressed them. They have not ignored "some" issues, but they have yet to report on one issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #12 July 12, 2004 QuoteYes, they've had serious issues and have seriously addressed them. They have not ignored "some" issues, but they have yet to report on one issue. The question was how long did they ignore the problem before they did anything? The answer: Longer than was safe."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
