Problem with atmonauti article in parachutist

[marcoT 1]

General answere for this forum :
…. Regarding who say that the diagram is not correct :
In Atmonauti the body is use exactly as a WING …. this sketch are indicative and this representation is for make understand that the air is coming from the head to the feet (as the airflow on a wing) respect the tracking where the air is impacting on all the length of the body . In synthesis in Atmonauti the physic phenomenon that we observe , is a “lift work” , and in tracking is a “resistant work” …. that’s why are completely different things ! Of course as in atmo we use the body like a wing , we can trim this wing with angles of incidence (respect the airflow) obtaining more lift (and less horizontal speed). If this angle become too much (also in relation of the speed) , the human wing profile “stall” losing all the lift and consequently do a unique resistant work (as in track) …. This are just easy Aerodynamics concept … the real new think introduce with atmonauti is the application of this concept to human body ! The representation on the sketches is indicative … in Atmonauti the airflow is the same represent in the sketch of the wing (when is not in stall of course) !!!
See the “lift” sketch of comparation between the wing and the body use with the technique Atmonauti (to see the lift , observe the rig on the shoulder that take off up and forward) . Atmonauti is the real human flight because there is the “LIFT” … all the rest , is more “control of the falling” … we can talk about “fly” with the real mean of the word , only if exist “lift” …. In freefly , relative work , tracking etc. do not exist the “lift” . I know that everybody in skydiving talk about fly (vertical fly, sit fly , belly fly etc. ) … but I think everybody can agree that we give to this term a different meaning respect the correct use of this word in Aerodynamics .

Regarding the fact that Atmonauti fly is easy and indicate for everybody including the very low experience , of course we talk about the basic fly in frontmonaut without complexes manoeuvre and without grip or acrobatic stuff … but for sure the slow vertical speed , the possibility to have long time work and the possibility to come in the group pretty often without problems , warranty a fast progression also for the real beginners ( but for this is very necessary good briefings and good debriefings). For us is very usual to have in the big way people with 80, 100 or 200 jumps flying synchronize with the formation in a very clean , easy and safety way . We start the coaching as soon they finished the AFF and the basic qualification , and in this case, without having any different imprinting , they learn to fly atmonauti very quick !

More in general I want to say that actually is years that somebody still will not accept the new Atmonauti concept , some time saying that is nothing different from tracking and some time that is just flocking … (so at this point , why they don’t say also that track and flock are the same thing ? )
Of course are three very different thing !!! And the logic (and good sense) want that also the definitions are to be different ! But some people prefer just create confusion for have the possibility to say what they want and what is convenient for their ego .
Is also years that some people including some big name , are doing atmonauti (may be just faster and without docks) but they call in different way (track most of the time, or trace or flock etc.) … no problem … I’m ready to show that all this people was tracking and flocking differently before and right after 2000 …. After the indroduction of the new Atmonauti technique, as for a magic , they have start to change their traditional way of track and flock, in a way more similar to atmonauti , but still calling track or flock …. Perfect, they have create the huge confusion existing now ( thanks to this people there still be skydivers , that after 7 year, even don’t know about the existence of the new Atmonauti technique … the real human flight technique , easy and accessible to everybody ) , but no problem …. We go forward and soon the true will be evident for everybody in the world .

To everybody continuous to say that was stuff already done , I say them one time for all : ok , no problem … but please now stop to talk and show the videos , pictures , article where this people produce, show and comment diagrams and talk about the technique questions … and again , show the feet first stuff ; or the flight in formation with the airplane ; or the tandem without drog and without pass the 180/200 Km/h ; or the docking formation ; or just no-contact formations where the people fly on top of the other without fall on each other …. No way my friends , until now nobody have show stuff like that, happen before 2000 (year of presentation of Atmonauti) ! . Check it out what was tracking and flocking before 2000 …. Absolutely far away respect the Atmonauti system ! The history can’t be change ! … and is all there to watch in the official videos (productions and competitions) and in the articles and pictures (books and magazines) ! If this people can’t bring any concrete prove that this stuff was already existing before 2000 , please I think is time to quit this discussion . We invite everybody to visit our web site www.atmonauti.com at the guinnes pages to see all the new manoeuvre and records performed in this 7 years .

Any way for all the people that continuous to say that Atmonauti don’t exist , is to late : from 2000 too many people have exactly understood what is Atmonauti and too many people have try and learn this new technique (philosophy) and have feel very different sensations . Ask to all this guys , everybody will answere : “ … is new ! is great ! … and is complitelly different rispect track and flock ! ”

In Atmonauti from 1998 we are doing FREESTYLE , FREEFLY , FEET FIRST, RELATIVE WORK , PRIZE GAMES (SFIDA and RACE) , BIG DOCK FORMATION , TANDEM , TANDEM with DOCK FORMATION , WORLD RECORD , etc. ….. they still call all this track or flock ? …. Is their problem . Personally , we invite everybody have questions to contact us directly or , even better , to come and fly with us (or with the numerous expert atmonauts around the world) and make a definitive personal experience about this matter .

www.atmonauti.com …. See you soon at Fly Zone Marche :

12-17 April – Eaester Boogie with load organizing atmonauti for all levels , and with the I-B Course (qualification for Instructor Atmonauti , Pilot tdm Atmonauti and “free school” for beginners with less than 100 jumps). Big screen all evening with the daily flight .

22/4 – 1/5 – Contest Atmonauti SFIDA and RACE . Prize games with 8000 euro and rich Larsen&Brusgaard prize to win . Load organizing atmonauti for all levels and the ATP AtmonautiTopPatrol . Big screen all evening with the daily flight . T-shirt of the Contest for all the participants in the games.

1-11 June – AtmonautiPro3 . The main world Atmonauti event of the year with the special participation of the ATP and of the best world atmonauts . Atmonauti load organizing and games for all levels ; big way atmonauti . Big screen all evening with the edit of the daily flight . Final lottery with big prize . Big Saturday night party. T-shirt AP3 for all the event participants. Event DVD .

22–30 July – Contest Atmonauti ARW4 Atmonauti Relative Work in 4 way . Prize games with 8000 euro and rich Larsen&Brusgaard prize to win . Load organizing atmonauti for all levels and the ATP AtmonautiTopPatrol . Big screen all evening with the daily flight . T-shirt of the Contest for all the participants in the game.

5-15 August – SkydiveMarche SummerBoogie . with load organizing atmonauti for all levels , and with the I-B Course (qualification for Instructor Atmonauti , Pilot tdm Atmonauti and “free school” for beginners with less than 100 jumps). Big screen all evening with the daily flight . Beach landing , beach party and the excellent Italian food .

19-27 August – Contest Atmonauti WORLD RECORD . All the atmonauts able to dock in front and/or in back are invite for this historic event . With the special participation of the ATP . Big screen all evening with the daily flight . T-shirt of the Contest for all the participants in the world record jumps.

23/9 – 1/10 – MA.GI.A. boogie . party time with the Marco and Gigliola birthday (30/9) , but also great group navigations all together and again the ATP partecipation . Big screen all evening with the daily flight

1-12 November – Breack Off Boogie – end season boogie with l.o. for all levels and the I-B Course (qualification for Instructor Atmonauti , Pilot tdm Atmonauti and “free school” for beginners with less than 100 jumps). Last meeting of the year with the ATP : special flight in plane . Big screen all evening with the daily flight .

[quade 4]

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General answere for this forum :
…. Regarding who say that the diagram is not correct :
In Atmonauti the body is use exactly as a WING …. this sketch are indicative and this representation is for make understand that the air is coming from the head to the feet (as the airflow on a wing) respect the tracking where the air is impacting on all the length of the body .

snipped

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… but I think everybody can agree that we give to this term a different meaning respect the correct use of this word in Aerodynamics .

Perhaps something is being lost in the translation, but just based on what you have typed here and the diagrams in Parachutist, I can't say that you have firm grasp about aerodynamics or what makes a wing fly as that is in agreement with most explanations of lift.

Generally speaking a wing with ZERO angle of attack as shown in your diagrams creates no lift whatsoever. None. Zip. Nada.

I'm almost certain that's not what you actually mean.

Please see this web site for how things -actually- fly;

http://www.av8n.com/how/

and this specifically;

http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/aoa.html#sec-def-aoa

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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[pilotdave 0]

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Generally speaking a wing with ZERO angle of attack as shown in your diagrams creates no lift whatsoever. None. Zip. Nada.

No, generally a wing with zero angle of attack creates very little lift, but not none. A typical airfoil creates zero lift at a slightly negative angle of attack.

Dave

[quade 4]

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Generally speaking a wing with ZERO angle of attack as shown in your diagrams creates no lift whatsoever. None. Zip. Nada.

No, generally a wing with zero angle of attack creates very little lift, but not none. A typical airfoil creates zero lift at a slightly negative angle of attack.

Dave

Now, my friend, we really are splitting hairs. ;^)

However, that said and for a symetrical airfoil I stand by my assertions.

http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil2.html

Change "Input" to "Shape/Angle" and set the AoA to "0".

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[pilotdave 0]

I haven't seen any front/back symmetric skydivers yet.

Dave

[sundevil777 102]

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I haven't seen any front/back symmetric skydivers yet.

Dave

It apparently is possible even for side flying atmonauts to achieve the claimed trajectory. It is all so ridiculous that they think they have an angle of attack of 0 degrees flying through the air.

Complete bullshit.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[VectorBoy 0]

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That 2 part article in Parachutist is full of crap.

Pure bullshit.

Come on now! Be nice.

I really like the picture by Wendy Smith of the round,,, and that handsome fellow in the back ground.

[OzoneJunkie 0]

I like to skydive :)


Seriously though, at some point I realized something: I don't really care who invented what, coined what term, etc. What the atmonauti group did, for me, is raise my awareness to something that I hadn't spent a lot of time on. I'll venture to say that I consider atmonauti different-ish. Different "enough" to be different in my eyes. But that's not what I care about. It's the skill level that Marco and gang have shown that made me go "yeah, I want to do that that well!", so I thank them for that. Label it whatever you want, or not. I don't see anyone arguing the skill that Marco and his friends have shown - and that's what I find most impressive about "atmonauti".

[VectorBoy 0]

Very well said junkie!!! And I agree.

Let us not forget the level of promotion. Marco and Gi are not out trying to sell badges, instructorships or franchises.

They just want people to try and fly the Nauti. Because , yes it is fun. And they work hard at it. Is that bad?

[Zenister 0]

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Perhaps something is being lost in the translation, but just based on what you have typed here and the diagrams in Parachutist, I can't say that you have firm grasp about aerodynamics or what makes a wing fly as that is in agreement with most explanations of lift.

Generally speaking a wing with ZERO angle of attack as shown in your diagrams creates no lift whatsoever. None. Zip. Nada.

I'm almost certain that's not what you actually mean.

Please see this web site for how things -actually- fly;

http://www.av8n.com/how/

and this specifically;

http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/aoa.html#sec-def-aoa

dont worry Quade, its not like Parachutist has been a 'fact based' publication for a while.. that article fits perfectly in the fluff catagory articles commonly published by Parachutist... long on verbage and (semi) pretty pictures but very lacking in factual data...

maybe they will claim to have invented a 'new aerodynamic definitions' next to support some of the ridiculous assertions made thus far....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Vertifly 0]

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claim to have invented

where are you getting this shit? stick to the facts dude...no one is claiming anything. rather, i believe it appears like they are trying to teach theory and the ideas behind it.

[marcin 0]

Why is everybody so aggresive about it? No one is trying to sell you anything, are they?

ATMO is better than believing in God. It is not a matter of being a believer or non-believer, you can actually see it with your own eyes.

Guys here who never tried flying atmo with a qualified instructor, cannot be convinced anyway and there are still only a few people who had the priviledge to train with Marco and Gi.

In brief: I did about a 100 jumps with Atmo guys, large formations, 3D flying etc. I took me about 30 jumps to actually feel the "WOW" factor. Before that I was just trailing and flailing behind the formation, my frustration growing. I've seen numerous experienced people going through the same process. Before I got it, I was like "this is just some bullshit" (although I never mentioned that to Marco). It looked like they were just tracking in some awkward body position.

I know, I am not gonna convince the ateists here, so I just write it for those who have their minds open enough to accept that there might be things they have not experienced yet.

How is it different ?
My experience is that in tracking I try to extend my body in a straight line and aim to increase horizontal speed. I feel the air coming from below, hitting my face, lower legs hard. In Atmo position I just hang my head down, relax, feel the air on my chest, but my extended legs get little push (as if I was head down - I actually feel the air on the sides of my legs and I can regulate the forward speed with spreading or closing my legs).

I am 180 pounds naked and I clocked vertical speeds of 149 km/h while in atmo. In a track I can't go below 175 km/h. The ability of flying directly above people in a very close proximity (arms lenght) is spectacular.

I never actually vent into a 45 deg flight. We always did more like 20-30 deg. Most of the correction of speed, proximity is done with similar hand, leg movements like in headdown, only that you sink at a rate of 90-100 mph. There is an unusual sense of lift generated in your body, unlike in tracking (for me at least), high ground speed is visible even from a high altitude. Your hands are pretty much free to take docks horizontally and vertically.

I am not arguing about semantics, what do we call and how. But definitely, a "proper" atmo position and flight is substantially different from what 99% of "regular" trackers experiences. So there is defintely one things M and Gi can teach you - it is flying, docking, manouvering in that position.

For one thing I am glad that there is an ATMO movement, it gives us the opportunity to gather and practice this flying style which seems to have a huge growing potential (difficult but visually amazing relative work etc.). It really spices up your skydiving experience.

And M&Gi and their dogs are really cool bunch , you should try and meet them!

[LouDiamond 1]

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The ability of flying directly above people in a very close proximity (arms lenght) is spectacular..... There is an unusual sense of lift generated in your body, unlike in tracking (for me at least), high ground speed is visible even from a high altitude. Your hands are pretty much free to take docks horizontally and vertically.

If that blows your skirt up, you need to try wingsuiting. ATMO is just a very small taste of what wingsuiters already know

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Zenister 0]

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claim to have invented

where are you getting this shit? stick to the facts dude...no one is claiming anything. rather, i believe it appears like they are trying to teach theory and the ideas behind it.

BS, they may be backing away from it now due to the rash of criticism, but they have certainly used the term 'invented' multiple times in relation to this 'type' of flight, both in print and internet articles...

and as should be apparent they could also use some brush up on aerodynamics in general based on some of the claims in their 'theory'

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Vertifly 0]

Have you been listening to the dialogue of this thread dude. Who cares...it is fun and it appears like that is what is being passed on in the article in the latest issues. Can you show me where anyone relies on the idea of 'inventing' anything as a commodity to get them somewhere? It sounds like they are trying to help others learn it. It is possible that they're also trying to get the word out that they've explored the angle much more than conventional flyers and that spreading the concepts is the goal.

Please, if you have a quote and a representation of context that displays what you are talking about, I'd like to read it....where is it?

[VectorBoy 0]

If that blows your skirt up, you need to try wingsuiting. ATMO is just a very small taste of what wingsuiters already know

[VectorBoy 0]

BS, they may be backing away from it now due to the rash of criticism, but they have certainly used the term 'invented' multiple times in relation to this 'type' of flight, both in print and internet articles...

[marcin 0]

Yeah.. but skydiving in a rain coat is a bit oldfashioned isn't it?

Besides, you cant take grips freely or stand on somebodys back while they track, if you wear a wingsuit...

[OzoneJunkie 0]

Even GW is rockin' the atmo (see attachment below). Don't have the heart to tell him he forgot his rig, though.

From:

http://www.planetdan.net/pics/misc/georgerag.swf

[LouDiamond 1]

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Besides, you cant take grips freely or stand on somebodys back while they track, if you wear a wingsuit...

A wingsuiter can take a grip on another wingsuit just as easy and in 3 dimensions, even while on their back. As for standing on someones back, well that can be done but its more fun to land on their back and piggy back for a while then start flying again. Thats with both people in wingsuits. Throw in a skydiver and standing, riding , you name it, has be done .

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Buried 0]

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Besides, you cant take grips freely or stand on somebodys back while they track, if you wear a wingsuit...

we can easily take grips on other suits/people.. so much now that there is a suit called the acro with grippers

as for riding on the back....
*cough*

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=50672;


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1785079#1785079

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[marcin 0]

Isn't the guy in THIS picture kissing your ass?!. Brokeback atmountainti?

[LouDiamond 1]

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Isn't the guy in THIS picture kissing your ass?!. Brokeback atmountainti?

Seeing how its a world class FS competitor and a woman. I highly doubt she is kissing anyones ass

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I dream of a world where skydivers no longer have to fall straight down where the jump pilots tell them to and instead can fly and navigate their trajectories as they see fit.

If you are not flying horizontally, you are just falling down!

For Great Deals on Gear

[VectorBoy 0]

If you are not flying horizontally, you are just falling down!