How would you react to this?

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Just a thought...would would you do if you heard an S&TA or DZO say something like this about a jumper that may be unsafe at a DZ?

"If they want to kill themselves, that's fine, but I won't step in until they directly endanger other people"

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[beowulf 1]

I think anyone should be free to kill themselves if they want to. I don't have any problem with that statement.
If someone wants to shoot themselves in the head or jump a 39sft canopy with very little experiance that is fine with me, but don't as me to help. I wouldnt provide the plane or the gun. We're all adults. We understand the consequences.

[d604 0]

Quote

"If they want to kill themselves, that's fine, but I won't step in until they directly endanger other people"

That sounds to me like a Safety Officer (SO) / S&TA or DZO that has tried in the past to 'educate' and discipline those that skydive dangerously but have come to realize that it is a job that drives one to get an ulcer.

It is a philosophy that I have used in the 'past' when no matter how much I try to correct a problem there is no way I can (especially without others supporting me on my decisions); like I said before it drives one to an ulcer.

Although, I have used this philosophy in the past I try to avoid it now as I've come to realize that most times that one might think that an individual "may" only hurt himself or herself it "could" be possible to hurt someone else (hook turns, not pulling at pull time, etc.).

Safety Officer's and S&TA's have one of the crappiest jobs at a drop zone. For every person that looks to you for advise there is one that looks at you as the spoiler of fun. I try to concentrate on the first rather than the latter, or I would go nuts.

Just my 2 cents.
Sean

CSPA ratings C1, C2, IA, IB, QE, RA, and EJR

[ChrisL 2]

Quote

Just a thought...would would you do if you heard an S&TA or DZO say something like this about a jumper that may be unsafe at a DZ?

"If they want to kill themselves, that's fine, but I won't step in until they directly endanger other people"

I would think that they were not doing their jobs.
Their job is to provide a safe environment to jump and learn.
Permitting an idiot to do whatever they feel like is not in keeping with that goal.
There is no way that one could allow a seriously unsafe jumper to do whatever they like without presenting some increased risk to everyone at the dz. This person should be asked politely to leave unless they accept basic guidelines for their own safety and the safety of others. Lets not even get into the example it sets to allow these things to continue unchecked.

__

My mighty steed

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

Their job is to provide a safe environment to jump and learn.

No, they are Drop Zone Cops. They are there to assist you in making safe choices and guide you along the path to learning. If you choose not to follow it is on you.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[hookitt 1]

Quote

"If they want to kill themselves, that's fine, but I won't step in until they directly endanger other people"

What was the reasoning behind that statement?

If he's dangerous to himself, then he's dangerous to others. It's not entirely cut and dry, but generally it's true. Also, if he kills himself because no one would step in, who deals with it? It's not the deceased.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[JohnMitchell 16]

It's a free country if you want to get yourself killed, but no DZO or S&TA would want it to happen at their DZ. I would be for chasing the offender down the road if you can't reeducate them. That's for full on Digits (dead guy in training). For borderline people it's a harder call. Was that maybe what you overheard? Whatever it is, maybe don't jump with that guy, eh? Good luck.

[MarkM 0]

Quote

Just a thought...would would you do if you heard an S&TA or DZO say something like this about a jumper that may be unsafe at a DZ?

"If they want to kill themselves, that's fine, but I won't step in until they directly endanger other people"

I think it would be a stupid thing for a DZO to say. When someone burns in at your DZ it'll hurt your place's rep no matter what the circumstances were. You'd be better off banning the guy from jumping at your DZ and let him kill himself at a competing DZ.

[Auryn 0]

This sport is the last place I have found where free will truly reigns.. if someone's idea of that is a choice of action that will kill themselves, then so be it. It falls into the column of true free will. I know of a person who is going to probably kill himself, but he doesn't hook, doesn't really endanger anyone else... just himself. And he has the freedom to do that, because the ground is the great equalizer.

in the words of the person that took back a demo canopy from him "Where did this blood come from ?"

if you want the ground to smite you, it will.


Blue Skies Black Death !

Bryan Klindworth

D27808

[lawrocket 3]

I'd think a DZO has a lot more to lose. I doubt any DZO would want it plastered in the newspaper that "Skydiver Dies: Safety Questioned when Discovered Skydiving Operator Knew of Dangers"

You don't think the whuffo press would eat that alive?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rkdavenp 0]

In cave diving, when we have a loose cannon they are banned from the team and from the caves we dive in. Granted jumpers are more independent but we both carry redundant systems and teamwork is pretty important right? Perhaps a grounding would open someones eyes, if you aren't concerned for the entire load, then you are not fit to be a part of it right?

[GravityGirl 0]

It's not always themselves the hurt or kill.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Quote

It's a free country if you want to get yourself killed, but no DZO or S&TA would want it to happen at their DZ. I would be for chasing the offender down the road if you can't reeducate them. That's for full on Digits (dead guy in training). For borderline people it's a harder call. Was that maybe what you overheard? Whatever it is, maybe don't jump with that guy, eh? Good luck.

Nope didn't overhear this - someone told me this was said to them. I'm not familar with the DZ or DZO, but the statement didn't sit well with me.

Personally, I may find another DZ to jump at if I heard my dz safety person talking this way (I'm pretty certain hell would freeze over first before they said that btw)...but then again, thats my opinion.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[riggerrob 643]

Sounds like the S&TA has burnt out from advising too many people who are intent on taking risks, kind of like me in my younger days.
A couple of threats of grounding were enough to modify my attitude.

[pkasdorf 0]

Quote

Quote

Their job is to provide a safe environment to jump and learn.

No, they are Drop Zone Cops. They are there to assist you in making safe choices and guide you along the path to learning. If you choose not to follow it is on you.
Sparky

If you choose not to follow it is not on you because there is the chance of endangering others. It has to be very clearly understood that "not following" has the potential to hurt fellow skydivers, pilots and/or other people.

"NOT FOLLOWING" IS NOT ADMISSIBLE.

Can anybody state that it is admissible knowing that it may endanger others?

HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

[billvon 2,998]

Depends. I'm all for people to take whatever risks they choose. However, there are a lot of skydivers who take risks they don't even understand. These are the people who I would consider grounding - because they're not even equipped (yet) to make a good decision on what risks they want to take.

[JohnMitchell 16]

It could be out of frustration, too. It can be hard to get high risk people to change their behaviour. The overheard statement might have been just a venting of frustration.

[tspillers 0]

I agree with most of the posts here. That is the wrong approach.

Not to seem in defense, but this could happen, as posted, from burnout, lack of support, etc. If an S&TA grounds someone and the DZO lets him jump, the S&TA's next step gets very messy. Often times, DZO's pick the S&TA and have even asked the Regional Director to change them. It makes it hard for an S&TA to hold firm and do the job. I have it easy because I am both S&TA and DZO. This might seem like a conflict (and could be for some), but I don't run into an issue of mixed enforcement. I haven't yet had to ground anyone for more than the remainder of the day (generally late in the day too). It takes time, but educating the individual properly can go a long way. I have started using the article from Parachutist now (March or April). That is an eye opener for most.

Todd

I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

[riddler 0]

I don't think it's the DZOs job to make people be safe. But it seems like having people die at your DZ would be bad for business. Or maybe it would just bring in more thrillseekers?

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[apley 0]

i don't think the S&TA should overlook this situation by not demanding adherance to good practices. it affects others most definitely. whether the errant immortal skydiver kills himself and creates bad press for our sport, or actually takes someone with him/her.

what i have found to be most effective is the dropzone hotline. gossip can be a good thing. if a skydiver is dangerous at my dz, he/she jumps alone! there is nothing more effective than a little peer pressure and a skydiver's ego to remedy this problem. as an added bonus, make sure the skydiver knows that they are considered persona non grata! solos suck if that's all you get to do!

[tspillers 0]

I definitely agree with the first part.

The second I agree with but only to a point. I have had to (as DZO or S&TA, it wouldn't have mattered) ground someone who did a solo and spiraled down to land down wind almost into an oncomming canopy that was following the set pattern.

Attitude is the other part. We all make mistakes. If they want to learn and fix it when approached (properly) then that is one thing. If they have the screw you, I have X jumps and know what I am doing, then it is someones responsibility to keep them from endangering others.

Personal opinion for what that is worth.

Todd

I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

How about this - let's say a jumper decided to do a right hand hook into the middle of the left hand pattern. When approached on the ground and asked "what the hell was that?" and the retort is "a damn fine hook" what would you do? What would you do in this scenario if the DZO didn't find it to be an issue at all and allows the jumper to keep jumping (he thinks this guy is a prodigy and can get away with it) even thou he just endangered everyone he just cut off?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[tspillers 0]

Well first, I get to cheat since I am the S&TA and the DZO and usually back myself up pretty well.

I also probably would have more diplomacy in my approach in point out the error in their performance. I would then explain that the guy flying the pattern has the right of way and direct him to either plan his approach to not conflict with the other canopies, land in the high performance area, or suck it up and fly a standard pattern on that jump. Diplomacy goes a long way. Even if they don't think they are wrong, they will more likely listen and after thinking about it try to follow your requests.

Obviously this doesn't work for some people and you have to take stronger measures.

Todd

I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Well, aren't you the lucky one! So, would you ground yourself if you did something stupid???

From my understanding, this person feels they are better than the rules, and diplomacy hasn't worked. A canopy coach has even used footage of his hooks of how not to do them.

Personally, I've seen too many canopy collisions and I would have grounded the guy with that response.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[tspillers 0]

I would hope not to do anything that would reguire grounding myself... Especially since I would probably have to do tandems or AFF if I did

It sounds like the guy needs to be grounded. Unfortuneately it is hard for some people to do. He probably go away with little things here and there for so long that it escalated.

As a DZO you many times people think about how important they are to the DZ (video, ratings, whatever) and forget how dangerous they are if they cause that guy on the standard pattern to freak out and toggle into the ground. Gross negligence on the DZ for allow this guy to do this repeatedly. There sure could be a case for that.

Todd

I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.