CSpenceFLY 1 #76 February 22, 2006 How do you think skydiving survived before all of this came about?Most of these points have been hit on but here are a few. -I'm saying there should be an alternative(now there is). -No one learns how to teach in 3 days. -Alotof coaches don't give a damn about teaching. -The DZO or S&TA should be able to determine if someone with 200 or 300 jumps is fit to jump with low time jumpers(this is how the sport survived before the ISP). -Most people just off AFF want to jump and I think if it came down to making 2 jumps with us regular people or making one coach jump,I think most would choose the first. -Every non coach jump with a low timer is not an accident waiting to happen. -A 3 day course does not transform someone with 100 jumps into a safe skydiver that can teach and the lack of that course does not make someone else with 100 or 200 jumps unfit to jump with someone with 20 jumps. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #77 February 22, 2006 Quote Does anyone have any actual data to show that novices jumping with "D" licensed skydivers prior to the ISP had any more accidents than novices jumping with coaches after the ISP, or is this just blowing hot air? Still waiting...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #78 February 22, 2006 QuoteI do a lot of free coaching, I also work with people to get them ready for courses very inexpensively You changed your tune since the last BOD meeting. I remember standing outside with you and another BOD and you said that you didnt' do anything for free. and something to the effect that you shouldn't have to "give back" to the sport. j'Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skymonkey2 0 #79 February 22, 2006 I was not at the last BOD. There have been many conversations about free coaching and I may have made the statement the everyones time is worth something, you can ask anyone that I have worked with that I would never have made that statement. who are you. I just held a AFF pre-course about two weeks ago, and in the intrem I am working with a full time staff members who does not have the money to pay for practice dives before the course. I am charging him slot plus pack jobs. Figure the oddsAFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #80 February 22, 2006 I'm sorry I meant the last Winter BOD meeting in Jacksonville.Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skymonkey2 0 #81 February 22, 2006 When I travel to conduct courses I sleep at the dz to save money for the candidates, I have slept on a couch in a non heated room for 10 day in the winter in Northern CA, there is one more thing I want to add, I am dontating my time and two brand new Sigma tandem systems to raise money for MS at a small cessna dz in WI, DONATE no fees, so on that note I will not carry this conversation on with you.......AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JumpRu 14 #82 February 22, 2006 I don’t see how allowing D license holder jump with students will lower the standards. I think 100-jump wonder USPA coach talking about EP that he never performed for real, canopy control and relative work is about as low as it can get Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carbonezone 0 #83 February 22, 2006 QuoteI'm not asking for anything to be thrown away.I'm saying that there should be an alternative to paying a 100 jump wonder for a coaches jump.I would like to see how many coaches candidates or renewals there would be this year if it was announced you would no longer have your slot covered.That would show you how many were really interested in "teaching" When I coach a student I DO ASK that they cover my slot and I DONT feel bad about it......period! I could NOT afford to do all the coach jumps that I do if I had to pay for my slot. I teach per the ISP's and then some !When I hit the lottery I will no longer ask for my slot! <> Tami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #84 February 22, 2006 I think there is also a difference between you(1200jumps) and Bubba(102 jumps) coaching someone.And there are places where there is not a choice. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpnaked69 0 #85 February 22, 2006 And I dont see how a D-license jumper without cutaways and without RW skills teaching someone is any different. Moreover, I dont think a person with 100 jumps and lots of personal coaching and tunnel experience and canopy coaching is going to be doing a bad thing. Neither system is capable of weeding out bad skydivers--we need to change the coach course--and then B, C, or D license jumpers can all go through it and prove that each person has the skill to fly and the skill to teach according to their merit--not to their jump number and not their license. And I agree with Carbonezone, it'd be great if I could afford to coach without asking people to cover me. I'd jump a lot more and they'd jump a lot more and there'd be a lot more learning going on. But in the meantime until I'm making 7 figures I'll just have to wait until people can cover my slot most of the time. What I do to make up for that is try to pack in as much information and value as possible. How much of a difference is there between someone with 102 jumps (with coaching and tunnel time and canopy coaching, etc) coaching and someone with 1200 hop-and-pops coaching? I think there's a lot. And on top of it, I think the person who has received coaching already is also a better coach because they've seen what works and what doesnt when passing on knowledge and skill. So why automatically assume that someone with 1200 jumps knows what they're talking about? And why automatically assume that someone 100 jumps doesn't know enough to help someone with 10-15 jumps? I think both of those assumptions are just as dangerous as the idea of a person with 100 hop and pops teaching someone with 10 jumps freefall skills. This is an old and somewhat boring debate however--quality of coaching, paying for slots, etc. I think we should refocus on the issue of the new change--D-license skydivers being OK'd to jump with students and do up to 4way group freefalls (2 d-license people and 2 students). I challenge anyone in the forum to tell me they cant think of 2 D-license wonders (I wanted to use the word Idiot here) who shouldnt be taking up students. Now what? You've got bigger problems on your DZ now than a 100 jump wonder doing a 2way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JumpRu 14 #86 February 22, 2006 >And I dont see how a D-license jumper without >cutaways and without RW skills teaching someone >is any different. my point is that you can not teach something that you only read about. > Moreover, I dont think a person with 100 jumps >and lots of personal coaching and tunnel >experience and canopy coaching is going to be >doing a bad thing. I have not seen 100 jumps canopy flight expert (no matter how much coaching he or she had). I think you need at least 5 times more jumps to plan exit point, holding area and landing pattern for student with huge canopy if there is any wind at altitude. >Neither system is capable of weeding out bad >skydivers--we need to change the coach course-->and then B, C, or D license jumpers can all go >through it and prove that each person has the skill >to fly and the skill to teach according to their merit->-not to their jump number and not their license. I’d say let the people decide where they want to pay their money. I’m sure they will choose professional training. There are bunch of courses in RW, FF or CC with very good references. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carbonezone 0 #87 February 22, 2006 QuoteI think there is also a difference between you(1200jumps) and Bubba(102 jumps) coaching someone.And there are places where there is not a choice. Totally agreed and I am SO VERY aware of the 100 jump wonders out there coaching and charging for the jumps and it truely sickens me as well....for the most part from a safety point of view! These comments of coaching for free slots or inexperience should not reflect on all the coaches out there. I have seen good and bad "kind of scarey"! I also agree that the coach rating is WAY to easy to obtain and should be looked at (jump numbers, air eval and general safety knoweldge). I would like to also add that when I have a kick ass ""dedicated"" student I always throw in a reward jump or two (at my cost). It's insentive to keep them learning. Hell at 20 something jumps I had to pay my coach when I started out and I was even SLEEPING with him after the day way over "I also ended marrying him and I am still paying for that.....ahhhh <> Tami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #88 February 22, 2006 A few people have mentioned these D-licensed jumpers who have only done hop & pops and have no RW skills. I don't know many of those, but I don't get around very much. And why do you need to have had a cutaway to help a self-supervising student get his A? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #89 February 22, 2006 QuoteA few people have mentioned these D-licensed jumpers who have only done hop & pops and have no RW skills. I don't know many of those, but I don't get around very much. And why do you need to have had a cutaway to help a self-supervising student get his A? It's a Strawman argument.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpnaked69 0 #90 February 22, 2006 I personally know of some. I could make the same argument about freeflyers with D licenses or even isntructor ratings who have very feeble belly skills. And I agree, you shouldnt need to have a cutaway to teach EPs. Once again, I only suggest that it should take more than a D-license to jump with students. It should take a stringent coach course (and maybe we need to raise the minumum jump number, too). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #91 February 22, 2006 QuoteA few people have mentioned these D-licensed jumpers who have only done hop & pops and have no RW skills. I don't know many of those, but I don't get around very much. And why do you need to have had a cutaway to help a self-supervising student get his A? It would be impossible to get a real D license only doing Hop N Pops. Unless, of course, someone was just signing them off. A D license does require 3 hours of FREEFALL time not to mention the freefall manuvers required. Emergency procedures better have been covered in their FJC. Coaches should be able to review EP's, but I don't think you need to have a cutaway to review EP's. jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #92 February 23, 2006 Quote Coaches should be able to review EP's, but I don't think you need to have a cutaway to review EP's. j Kinda like getting sex education from a nun?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #93 February 23, 2006 QuoteQuote Coaches should be able to review EP's, but I don't think you need to have a cutaway to review EP's. j Kinda like getting sex education from a nun? Which raises the question: Do you feel that to be qualified to instruct a student on EPs the instructor should have experienced at least one cutaway? If so, under actual emergency conditions, or would a planned, intentional cutaway (i.e., with a tersh rig) suffice? Or not at all? This question is really for everyone to weigh in on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #94 February 23, 2006 QuoteDo you feel that to be qualified to instruct a student on EPs the instructor should have experienced at least one cutaway? If so, under actual emergency conditions, or would a planned, intentional cutaway (i.e., with a tersh rig) suffice? Fuck that. You can only teach the basic procedures. What to pull, and in what order for a given situation. Any insight you may take away from an actual cutaway is limited to that cutaway. Each situation will be different in the details, so all you can teach is to pull what when. Intentional cutaways represent an additional risk, and that should risk should be limited to those who choose to take it, not as a requirement for a rating. The tandem thing is an exception, as you are being entrusted with the well-being of another person, and a complete failure to respond could result in their death. You could teach EP's all day long, and then ride in a spinner on the sunset load, and your students still got trained, and you're the only one who's dead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #95 February 23, 2006 QuoteQuote Coaches should be able to review EP's, but I don't think you need to have a cutaway to review EP's. j Kinda like getting sex education from a nun? IMO, I don't think so. I said REVIEW, not teach. I am an AFF instructor. I have never had a cutaway, does that make me unqualified to teach EP'S? jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #96 February 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteDo you feel that to be qualified to instruct a student on EPs the instructor should have experienced at least one cutaway? If so, under actual emergency conditions, or would a planned, intentional cutaway (i.e., with a tersh rig) suffice? Or not at all? Fuck that. etc., etc..... Yeah, my feelings, too; but I'm not an instructor and only have 700+ jumps, so I'm curious what other people think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #97 February 23, 2006 >Kinda like getting sex education from a nun? More like a doctor, if you don't know if the doctor has had sex or not. (Who would you listen to about how to prevent and treat STD's - a hooker or a doctor?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #98 February 23, 2006 Its all fine and well, but what were the door prizes that betsy promised to give out? smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #99 February 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhich jumper would you rather be? Number 1 or number 2? When I was a student I had "Number 1" tattooed to my forehead. Sadly, I was Number 2. I was lucky, because it was a long time before I realized it. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #100 February 23, 2006 Quote>Kinda like getting sex education from a nun? More like a doctor, if you don't know if the doctor has had sex or not. (Who would you listen to about how to prevent and treat STD's - a hooker or a doctor?) I'm thinking, I'm thinking....... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
