pulling low

[buzi 0]

I"m not sure if this is in the right forum area. I was just thinking back to a question on my B license and not sure if I remember the right answer. Question was : You're doing a four way and realize you are very low (didn't say how low) do you :
1. turn 180 and dump
2. turn 180,track a couple seconds and dump
3. I don't remember this one
Anyways as far as I remember (and what I would do) would be to turn 180 and dump and grab rear risers and brace myself. I think tracking would waste precious altitude, but then again dumping so close to others might be dangerous as well.
Just wondering what you guys think.

[Scoop 0]

My thoughts, as a beginner but I like to think I have common sense, would be turn 180 and pull if worryingly low. Then even if you have a 90 degree off heading opening should be OK. Plus I'd have thought better to have a canopy above your head than a partially inflated one as you hit the ground.

[shropshire 0]

If you're in a 4 way ... the others are low too.. so I think that it's important to let them know .. So Wave Off first.... then turn and dump..

You need to think of the whole team safety as well as your own...IMHO

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[buzi 0]

The thing that made me think of this is that I was on the Airtec website, and was watching a video of a four way that got too low. They seemed like they were a above average skill level, when they realized they were too low they turned and tracked before dumping (cypres fire). So I thought that I wouldn't have done that, then I remembered the question on the test.
Blue skies

[stratostar 5]

I would say it would depend on how low is low?
Did all four jumpers just bust thur 1000ft.?
Or are we talking low as in 2.5K?

the others are low too.. so I think that it's important to let them know .. So Wave Off first.... then turn and dump..
(quote)

We teach AFF students if you see me pull, you better pull!
If I pull out of the formation, I'm letting them know.
Again how low are we really talking about here?
That answer may change the answer I would give.
If we just busted 2.5 grand, get hands free, quick wave turn and track and hang it out, the faster the better.
Even better don't go to the basement doing four way in the first place.
~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[ccowden 0]

If you are in a 4-way and are low enough that you feel the need to turn 180 and dump NOW, then that is sufficient enough to get everyone's attention. If you feel that turning 180 and dumping immediately is your best option, that would assume you are DANGEROUSLY low. If you feel as though you have time to track off, that would assume you are just lower than normal and a wave off to the others would be warranted.

[BIGUN 1,312]

And, depending on how "Dangerously low" we are; what are we "dumping?"

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[shropshire 0]

Thanks - better and more comprehensive answers than my attempt.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[rasmack 0]

Quote

And, depending on how "Dangerously low" we are; what are we "dumping?"

Yes, I'd like to hear that too. I am not sure my Spectre would be the correct choice zooming past 2k. Actually I was taught to go for the reserve in this case. Not because the canopy would not have time to open but because a malfunction at 1k would be really problematic.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[daniel_owen_uk 0]

Hang on, are you very low on the formation, or very low altitude?

The question doesn't clear that up.

If you are at 10,000 feet and low then surely you are better clearning your airspace by tracking for a while?

__________________

BOOM Headshot

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

I am not sure my Spectre would be the correct choice zooming past 2k. Actually I was taught to go for the reserve in this case.

I agree; but I think even if you plan that EP situation in your head, etc. (which I do) there's still a good chance that muscle memory will kick in and make you go for your main first.

[rasmack 0]

Quote

Quote

I am not sure my Spectre would be the correct choice zooming past 2k. Actually I was taught to go for the reserve in this case.

I agree; but I think even if you plan that EP situation in your head, etc. (which I do) there's still a good chance that muscle memory will kick in and make you go for your main first.

I know, but all I can do is prepare.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[skybytch 273]

Quote

If you are at 10,000 feet and low then surely you are better clearning your airspace by tracking for a while?

If you're at 10k and low on a formation you should work on getting back up to the formation (without going under it) and staying where everyone else can see you until whatever breakoff altitude was decided on. Then you should track away and pull.

Plan the dive and dive the plan.

[riggerrob 643]

If I find myself still in a formation at 2.5, I will simply wave and dump (toss my main pilot chute) in place.
The others should take this a sign that they are dangerously low.

Similarly, I tell my PFF students that if they ever see me opening, it is because we are below 3,000' and I do not enjoy freefalling below 3,000'.

[BIGUN 1,312]

Quote

And, depending on how "Dangerously low" we are; what are we "dumping?"

Quote

Yes, I'd like to hear that too. I am not sure my Spectre would be the correct choice zooming past 2k. Actually I was taught to go for the reserve in this case.

Good Instructor.

http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2006SIM/section5.htm Paragraph E, Subsection 4. While there is a bit of a contradiction in the SIMS (D-License holders can pull at 2,000', but the recommended hard deck is 1800'. Today's parachutes take ~600-1000' to open). IMO, no pull of the main by 2000' means I'm at ~1638' in two seconds and this is an emergency. My reserve is coming out.

Even the standard for the AFF/I course is the main leaving the pack tray prior to 2000'

All of this can be avoided if we follow Rule #1. Planned breakoff is breakoff.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[BIGUN 1,312]

Quote

If I find myself still in a formation at 2.5, I will simply wave and dump (toss my main pilot chute) in place.

What if the person opposing you has the same exact thought at the same exact time?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[darkwing 5]

Quote

Quote

If I find myself still in a formation at 2.5, I will simply wave and dump (toss my main pilot chute) in place.

What if the person opposing you has the same exact thought at the same exact time?

That was almost the way it was on a 10-way I was in on at 1800 feet once. We all lived. I think I actually turned around though, so I cheated. I don't want to do it again, but virtually all low pulls are unintentional. I certainly wouldn't fault someone for pulling in place. Most importantly, avoid the situation, but that doesn't help when you find yourself there. Pulling is good.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

Quote

If I find myself still in a formation at 2.5, I will simply wave and dump (toss my main pilot chute) in place.

What if the person opposing you has the same exact thought at the same exact time?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Since "buddy" has already demonstrated his lack of altitude awareness by "sucking us down" this low, chances of him deploying at exactly the same second as me are slim.
If forced to chose between the DEFINITE risk of (high speed) collision with a planet or the POSSIBLE (medium-speed) collision with a team-mate, I chose the smaller risk.
In this scenario, I prefer to remove myself from the formation and hope that others are bright enough to take my cue.

[BIGUN 1,312]

Not unlike yourself, I too, would think they'd better be faster on the draw than me... but, the only difference being if we found ourselves =/<2K and would fire my reserve, so they knew which handle to go for too.

Here's my personal thoughts regarding the first scenario of a four-way smokin low:

1. Don't bust the agreed-upon break-off altitude. Wear two Dytters, wear two altimeters (one wrist, one chest), do whatever it takes to prevent breaking rule 1.
2. If I find myself on a four-way at 2.5K - Turn 180, track for an instant and dump main
3. If I find myself on a four-way at 2K - Turn 180, track for an instant and dump reserve

Course, let's all hope this is a moot point. Your thoughts?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

Quote

Quote

If I find myself still in a formation at 2.5, I will simply wave and dump (toss my main pilot chute) in place.

What if the person opposing you has the same exact thought at the same exact time?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Since "buddy" has already demonstrated his lack of altitude awareness by "sucking us down" this low, chances of him deploying at exactly the same second as me are slim.
If forced to chose between the DEFINITE risk of (high speed) collision with a planet or the POSSIBLE (medium-speed) collision with a team-mate, I chose the smaller risk.
In this scenario, I prefer to remove myself from the formation and hope that others are bright enough to take my cue.

***

My thoughts as well.

Though at 2.5 I might turn 180...anything below 2, it's time to go into personal 'save ass' mode.

Making the 'best' of a BAD situation.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[buzi 0]

To answer your question about how low. On the actual test it doesn't say how low, all it says is you are lower than your break off altitude (I am sure there was no altitude specified). The video I saw on Airtec the four way was lower than 1500 for sure (their cypreses deployed just a couple seconds after breakoff) they did chose to track, which resulted in cypres fire instead of manual deployment. Anyways I like idea of turning and dumping my reserve if I am under 1500.

[stratostar 5]

Anyways I like idea of turning and dumping my reserve if I am under 1500.
(quote)

That is a fair answer and good choice of handles to pull.
Ok your down and REAL dirty now at 120mph, take's a second for your mind to process the info for each thought, another second to start to turn, another second to do the turn, another second to reach for your handle, another second to pull it, that is now five seconds that have gone by from 1500ft at 120mph, now how low are you getting a canopy out?
That answer might surprise you.
If you have never been down in the basement like that you don't know what real ground rush is, I've been there and done that it's not a place you want to find yourself no matter how many jumps you got, to close for comfort for me.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[buzi 0]

According to your calculations that it would take five seconds to perform those maneuvers, I'd be able to witness my cypress in action. I do not plan on being this low without a wing over me (but I want to know to how to react if I ever find myself in this situation). I Deploy at three grand usually and have my dyter set at 35 just to remind me pull time is coming, and I always turn my cypres on. I think it would still be a good idea to go through the turn and dump maneuvers incase if the cypres wouldn't work. Well anyways I'll keep rolling my tail and nose (hate those hard openings)and make sure I under canopy above 2500.

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

incase if the cypres wouldn't work

***

Another whole can of worms there!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[stratostar 5]

I'm not saying your thinking is wrong or your plan of action.
I personally don't think I would waste the time to turn, with that said, you never know what you might do
until presented with it in real life.
It's all good, just as long as you have a plan and think ahead and seem to me that you are thinking ahead and coming up with a plan, so carry on, good questions you have asked.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo