Ethics v's secrets v's safety.

[Trae 1]

in reply to "That is the short list "
.............................

hey
I like how even mentioning this shyte supposedly makes me paranoid/tortured not just interested.
It does gets me a bit how those bodgy guys get away with it for so long . now I know how ...they've got a built in support crew of blind/naive jumpers running around only too eager to help hide their hero's mistakes by shooting that naughty little messenger.

I'll have to work on a list of things I've personally seen but the best one is probably being privy to a discussion of how to hide a reserve pack phuck-up that resulted in a fatality. It went along the lines of "If you're the first (bodgy bastard) on the scene make sure you carry a knife".
You can sometimes recognise those responsible ..they'll say nothing and go REAL quiet pretending like they're upset but really they're scared ( of being found out ).

Paranoid ? Tortured ?
.....more like REAL annoid and fortunate.

ps I'm glad a grown-up turned up to this conversation. it was getting kinda boring dodging those bullets.

[stratostar 5]

...they've got a built in support crew of blind/naive jumpers running around only too eager to help hide their hero's mistakes by shooting that naughty little messenger.
(quote)

Yes I have seen that happen too, every thing on my "short list" more then one person knew it was going on, ie pilots & a&p's jumpers,they all knew it was wrong and went along with the flow.

ps I'm glad a grown-up turned up to this conversation.(quote)

I understand your frustration with the young pups, but you have to remember it's not their fault, not being around long enough to see stuff happen, if no one tells them how would they know any better? Or if you start at a dz where this kind of stuff is S.O.P. then they would think your just being a pussy
and you would hear something like "we do it all the time & haven't killed anyone yet" or "it work's just as good".

Jumpers/poster with only 5 or 6 years in the sport don't remember all the crap of the past and most don't care they didn't know any of the dead people, like we did.
They don't seem to want to under stand the past and so you tend to see history repeat it's self.
Then again I've known not to try to catch a cutaway under canopy since 1977 or 78

With that said I don't think there are many shady operators left around, only but a few left these days but that's no reason to not keep an eye out for things that paying customers have a right to know about and a right to expect that the legal standards for safe operations have been met with out corner cutting or breaking the law in order to save a buck or two.


~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

With that said I don't think there are many shady operators left around, only but a few left these days but that's no reason to not keep an eye out for things that paying customers have a right to know about and a right to expect that the legal standards for safe operations have been met with out corner cutting or breaking the law in order to save a buck or two.

You mentioned something about a plane flying without a radio. Two weeks ago, I saw a dzo ground a plane for just that reason. It backed things up during a boogie and cost him a lot of money.

I am sure that "somewhere in the world, this one guy did this one thing about 143 years ago..."

With todays litigious society, Everything is scrutinized.
People cross Ts and dot Is because it costs them.

I am sure that there are unscrupulous individuals, as in any industry. However, Trae constantly paints them all as dishonest, kill-a-skydiver-for-a-dime types. Those types are so few in number as to be non-existent. Certainly not a conspiracy.

I can't count the times that I have had someone go out of their way to help me. Skydivers, dzos, a/c owners, riggers, and manufacturers.

His repeated, unfounded allegations are the only dishonesty that I am seeing. I resent his characterizations of the many good people in this sport.

I don't believe for a moment that this is all about "helping protect others". Everyone else has a brain and can figure it out too. Stuff like that becomes obvious after 6 months in the sport, not 10 years.

The dzos that I have met have not only abided by safety standards, but stressed them. I could relate so many stories to that effect that I'd need my own forum. I am sure that so could you.

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

I like how even mentioning this shyte supposedly makes me paranoid/tortured not just interested.

The difference between you a Stratostar is he had the balls to list specifics that he is aware of and not paint the industry as a whole with the same brush. Repeated posts containing nothing but innuendo and lacking anything specific is a waste of bandwidth.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[stratostar 5]

Thank you !

You just said it all, sparky.
I won't bash trae for saying or posting his thoughts.
I don't think it's fair to point at him and call it "the boy who cried wolf", I don't know him, I don't know where he jumps.
But if he has ran into things in the sport that he think's is unsafe or repetedly "cut's corners", he has a right and a
duty to bring it to light.

If someone want's to dismiss his account of things that is ok
but it don't mean he is just making shit up to piss off people.
Just maybe he really did see some stuff that needs to be talked about but he needs to be careful as to what he say's like naming folks or dz's. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen people bash some one who said something about XYZ and then everone from XYZ chimes in and defends XYZ.

Not every time, but most of the time if you really took the time to look you might find out that XYZ was really doing it.
A lot of people think they know what is going on at the dz, but really their not at the dz enough to even have a clue, your two and a half days a week being busy having fun jumping/working/partying ect, most are to into "their own world" at the dz getting their fix to even note things like no safety wire on a cowling, or pink shit coming out of a 100LL tank, ECT, ECT, so people should not be so quick to dismiss others accounts.

Most of the really crooked shit I have seen done was done durring the weekdays and then carry over to the weekend.
If your not there (at the dz) seven days a week, then you can't know what the hell the DZO is doing or not doing when your not there, and just because their a hell of a great guy durring your weekend visit don't mean that durring the week he's not cutting corners to save a buck, most of that shit you will never see unless your an A&P or I/E, Pilot or dz manger
because you have to get dirty sometimes to see the shit, like carb heat missing, how many fun jumpers are going to take the time to look or learn what to look for?

Not very many!
DZO at XYZ is great guy he wouldn't do that!
Really?

The other prop I saw home work shopped to fix it was back on a plane in two weeks with fresh black paint and yellow tip's on it, and hauling jumpers, but it's ok we got rig's on and sit by the door.

Maybe Trae is just full of shit and has a personal axe to grind!
Then again, maybe not.
Just something to think about.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Paige 0]

Quote

What I've seen more recently is people wiping over their mistakes . pretending like they didn't happen. not sharing them so others could learn...altering the facts a bit.
It's as if some less experienced people need to trick others into believing that they are better than they actually are. Several close calls on tracking dives where inexperienced people sort of nearly killed their mates and then the vid goes missing or didn't work.

I'm not trying to start shit or be off topic but have you ever been in a very bad accident that required lots of drugs, surgery, and a long hospital stay?

I have and I know for a fact that my story when I was in the hospital broken, after surgery, and after I got out, may vary a little because of all the drugs, trama, and surgery that I went through following. This is by no means me trying to hide, justify, or say it wasn't my fault. It is simply the truth for me. Today, I can barely remember specific details of my incident off hand. No one saw it so I'm at a loss as to what really happened.

Just a thought as to how stories might change w.o malicious intent or w. the intent to misguide.

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Maybe Trae is just full of shit and has a personal axe to grind!
Then again, maybe not.
Just something to think about.
.................................

Sounds like a nicely rounded view. & you're right I don't want to be too specific for various reasons .
Stratostar's comments have helped keep this in perspective a bit.
Sparky boy's seem kinda inflammatory.
(Sheesh.... try for a chat get a ball basher.)

Axes to grind .....??? here's one or two & hey I want to keep this discussion in general thanks (as in general skydiving discussions )even though some appear intent on getting at the specifics. (you fiesty fellows you ) That would be a very different little talk ...one I'd prefer to be having in more caring and effective company.

*The continued sucking in of fresh faced newbies into questionable behaviour IS a concern of mine.

*The plethora of illicit drugs and their distributors within the sport is .

It appears a number of highly active skydivers support their adrenaline habit by feeding others their personal poison. Skydiving looks like a ready made distribution network to these people with a steady stream of new customers .

The illegal nature of this automatically creates secret but not necesarily hidden behaviour. There MAY be a place for illegal drugs in our society but I've got a strong feeling it's NOT while skydiving.

Here's a bit more secret shyte ...take it anyway you like....they did
DZ Prostitution & secret little groupies

One night , I was sitting at a DZ fire late at night and a bloke nudged me in the ribs and impatiently said “come on mate it’s your turn “. I didn’t know what he was on about . He helpfully explained and pointed over to a tent . I passed . This guy happily took my turn and the next guy in line moved along and said “if you’re not in the queque don’t sit here.”
I took his advice .
One enterprising guy had taken to sharing his girlfriend around.for $$$$ every Saturday night to pay for his petrol and drinking.????.

The worst form of such a group I became aware of was a group that appeared real good at picking up young girls. I wondered what these good looking girls saw in these older guys .

The penny dropped when early one Sunday morn I saw a young woman wandering around lost ,in a daze , with only a torn top on. She’d done her first tandem the day before with a friend. She’d been drugged and apparently raped. I got her help in the form of a caring female friend.
Later that day I was confronted by a few blokes who threatened me if I kept taking an interest in their behaviour. As a young person I felt helpless to do anything about this stuff. I just wanted to skydive not be a knight in shining armour.
That DZ kinda lost its warm glow for me for a while at least..

As time progressed I got to see members/friends? of this group obtain positions of influence in the sport, some became tandem masters and instructors and I could guess how they got their influence and asserted their power….and it wasn’t through their skydiving skills.
Safety to them meant not being found out .

Of course not all places exhibit such traits. And in general such things are pretty thin on the ground as true professionalism replaces shonky shyte..
If it needs clarifying for any unbelievers then yes such behaviour is a definite minority. It tends to hide in the back blocks .
The thing is such things are still there & in skydiving anything which increases the danger levels of an already inherently dangerous pastime are worth noting.... perhaps .
Might affect you but most likely it won't.


ps just another little long term survival tactic (and sort of a trade secret ) At a multi-aircraft operation listen to the different aircraft motors ..... the sweetest one with the least vibration is the one to jump if you've got a choice...the pro's will be using that one you may notice. otherwise get a slot near the door.

[Eiley 0]

Quote

*The plethora of illicit drugs and their distributors within the sport is .

Heh. If there's one thing I can absolutely guarantee you is that, percentage wise at least, there is nowhere near the drug and alcohol problem during skydiving that there was 15 years ago....

nothing to see here

[stratostar 5]

True very true!

You don't see people doing blow or burning a big fatty and sipping on a cool one on the way to jumprun any more, but that stuff stopped in the 80's.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Eiley 0]

Quote

The penny dropped when early one Sunday morn I saw a young woman wandering around lost ,in a daze , with only a torn top on. She’d done her first tandem the day before with a friend. She’d been drugged and apparently raped.

This is the second such incident you have posted about. Rape is not bad behaviour on the dropzone, it is a very serious crime that carries a jail sentence of up to 25 years.

What did the police say when you reported these incidents?

nothing to see here

[Trae 1]

in reply to "What did the police say when you reported these incidents?
"
...............................

Good question Eiley ,

I found out that the requirement for evidence is even higher with the police than it is here at DZ.com.

Perhaps you can share with us all what is the most effective thing to do if you see these guys still operating .? and still getting away with it ??

Find another place to skydive?????

As for illegal drug use in the sport being worse 15 years ago ..........perhaps but I think not . No matter some are trying real hard to make up for any lost time.

What I'd prefer to see is a lot less chemical BS from some of the drug fueled pace setters especially at the bigger boogies and a bit more true excellence and airmanship on display .

Hearing newbies boast about their previous nights excesses has changed from ...." I finished the bourbon and half that carton and my mull's all gone "
to
" @$#*$$ (insert drug dealers name ) took twice as many eccies as me and three times the goey and he's been trippin' for a week and HE'S jumping so why can't I?."

Such displays look very trashy and watching the very ordinary displays of skydiving and safety awareness by these users makes it awesomely dangerous as well....

[stratostar 5]

As for illegal drug use in the sport being worse 15 years ago ..........perhaps but I think not . No matter some are trying real hard to make up for any lost time.

What I'd prefer to see is a lot less chemical BS from some of the drug fueled pace setters especially at the bigger boogies and a bit more true excellence and airmanship on display .

Hearing newbies boast about their previous nights excesses has changed from ...." I finished the bourbon and half that carton and my mull's all gone "
to
" @$#*$$ (insert drug dealers name ) took twice as many eccies as me and three times the goey and he's been trippin' for a week and HE'S jumping so why can't I?."

Such displays look very trashy and watching the very ordinary displays of skydiving and safety awareness by these users makes it awesomely dangerous as well....
(quote)

I was wondering where all the dope heads were......
Dude I just don't see the same as you, but that's ok.
Yes I still see people who par take in substances after hours
those that do "hard drugs" (the kind thay keep you up all night and the next day) are passed out all dam day and don't come too till late afternoon so I don't see them jump much they are there more for the partying then the jumping.

However at boogies I still see some of the old gang who still drink and smoke pot durring the day while jumping there aren't many left but their out there.

I do see the younger gang (who stay up all night) drag down the newbies, but their young, I was too once, there not doing anything most everyone else did in there younger days, some still do.
As for the old farts who party durring the day, these are the guys who 20 yrs ago you whould have seen burning a doobie and doing blow on the way up in the plane, Ive seen some big ass dc-3 partys back in the day.

Todays party crowd is much more discreet then in the past and I don't think as many users as back then.

I vote for party after the jumping and keep your shit away from me, I don't want to know what you do on your own time, but if your actions away from the jumping is going to endanger me durring jumping (or anyone) we have an issue at that point, I'm pretty good at spotting those who should not be jumping after using.

With that said I see alot of people who haven't slept it off for long (drinking all nite) who get up and jump on the first load, would stand a good chance of getting a DUI if they drove to town, but dzo's let them on the plane.

Anyway I don't think it's any where near as bad today as it was 20 or 25 yrs ago, maybe it's cuz I'm older now and just when the party get rage'n real good, I'm in bed.
Today the only bar I go to is the salad bar..................

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[NSEMN8R 0]

I kind of know what you're saying. I've seen a lot of shady stuff in the relatively short time I've been around. One time the pilots side door fell off this guys plane so they patched it up with plywood. The windshield poppped out on final and they crashed it a little while later.
Another guy refused to buy fuel from the airport manager, so he used to keep a dozen or so big plastic drums full of av gas hidden in his hangar. He'd make trips back and forth all week long to another airport filling up a homemade tank he had built into the back of his pick up truck and cart the fuel back home to his barrels so he wouldn't have to fly there during the weekend and wouldn't have to buy fuel from the enemy. Unapproved containers in an unventilated hangar... It's amazing nobody got blown up.

So yeah, I'd say a lot of stuff goes on that isn't very cool, but most of the stuff you're bitching about doesn't really seem safety related. Who cares if some guy is ho'ing out his old lady out of his tent? More power to him! at least he's not ripping people off or something. Same with the drug dealers. I'd rather have them out there selling rocks or buds or whatever than have them breaking into cars in the parking lot.

As far as the party supplies at the dz, it doesn't seem like we have that big of a problem with it just from reading over the incident reports. I can probably count on my fingers how many incidents I've heard of that were proven to be related to drugs or alcohol. We just don't have crackheads pounding in all over the place every weekend.

As far as chicks getting raped at your dz.. Shame on you for not doing anything about it. I don't care how young you were. If the cops wouldn't do anything you should have got some of your boys together and taken care of that shit.

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Shame on you for not doing anything about it. I don't care how young you were. If the cops wouldn't do anything you should have got some of your boys together and taken care of that shit. "
................

What I'm getting at is that it was " the boys" but not mine so much as I was one of them ..sort of ...at the time.
I did what I could to soften the blows. That DZ and the area in general sucked so bad that I left it to stew in it's own mysoginist backward shyte. They left a bounce trail in the time thereafter and two or three nasties bit the dust....others are carrying the scars.......some are still pretending like it didn't happen ..... good Karma bad karma?

but back to the droog shyte.

Stratostar has a nice way of keeping this in perspective. Sure most people are too busy skydiving on DZ's to blow themselves away all day & night. The heavy drug users do tend to stick out even thought they may think they're invisible ( more self delusionating )and over time they fall by the wayside as well cause they just can't keep up with the au naturals.

I suppose my point with all this is that as a safety/ethical/secret thing we're all better off if the secrets that affect our safety are in the open ...then we can all make our own decisions based on a bit of truth however unpopular such stuff is with the general skydiving crowd.
I've noticed that serious errors of judgement from experienced skydivers are often due to unusually high substance use whether it's alchohol or whatever.

Safety while skydiving for me has been and is largely about trust and faith in other people and our equipment. Bad behaviour that reduces the level of expertise in our sport may not affect all but it does have its victims.
Becoming less tolerant of negative trends however small or invisible to some is just another leaf in the safety book or long term survival guide.

Shame on me ?????? more shoot the messenger

I don't give a flying #@^& who does what drugs or how much or for that matter if they don't maintain their own aircraft properly ...why should any-one if it only hurts the perps?
but if such behaviour interferes with my skydiving or endangers those I care about then I'm gonna notice and at least have a go at changing it for the better. We've all got our own karma I'll take mine as it comes . So far so good.
Some of us out here like to at least try for 100%.
Ok it may be in the high '90's already

Not runnin' & not hidin' but dodgin' can be fun and talkin' about it ?....well that's somethin' else altogether.