Exit order strategies...

[skydivenagasaki 0]

Having traveled to different dropzones lately, variances in exit order strategy have come into play. There are different reasons for each scenario both pros and cons and I’m wondering if anybody has really figured out the best order. I personally feel that RW big to small, FF big to small, AFF, Tandem, is logically the best. (Of course that theory is trashed when the solo FF dumps at 4K and the AFF-I's get sucked low and pass the FF at 2K in a snivel. And the same type incident could take place with a tumbling tandem or a videographer who has to deal with a student who was dumped out at 8-9K out of control.) Depending on uppers, the Crew Dogs, Trackers, Wingsuits, and Up-Top-Hop-N-Pops can get out 1st or last. But lately, new versions have come into play.

Some examples:

One of the dropzones that I visited thought it best to put the FF out first due to the fact that they have faster fall rates thereby reaching pull altitude quicker than the belly flyers. Also, the FF are typically (but not always) flying smaller, faster canopies so they should be below the larger slower canopies. But what happens when a slow-falling FF pulls at 4K and the RW flyer behind him doesn’t pull till 2.5K and then has a cutaway and ends up in/on/through the FF?

Another dz thought it proper to put the AFF’s out with the RW groups before the FF. The response was that horizontal separation is better than vertical. Well what happens when that student (who is backsliding up jumprun) goes haywire and has to be dumped out at 7K as the FF are coming through the same altitude? Doesn’t make for a pretty situation.

I like the idea the swooper’s have during competition with WL high to low but then you split up disciplines. Same pros and cons for opening altitudes low to high.

Already appreciative for the responses to come…

Sorry for the novel of a post but necessary background for the thread…

"and if you don't like it then 'Hey Fuck You'"
--The Beastie Boys--

[jlmiracle 7]

like the idea the swooper’s have during competition with WL high to low but then you split up disciplines.

Swooping is a discipline and they should be getting out at 5000' on their own pass.

I think Kalland has some super cool and grovey program he put together to answer your questions.


Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[rehmwa 2]

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I personally feel that RW big to small, FF big to small, AFF, Tandem, is logically the best.

Good general rule, but really depends on the winds up vs down and jump run direction. But normally, if the uppers are faster than the lowers and in the same general direction, then that works ok. And the size of the formation is less important than the relative fallrates of different disciplines (big to small versus small to big versus mixing it up is less important than RW first, then FF).

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One of the dropzones that I visited thought it best to put the FF out first due to the fact that they have faster fall rates thereby reaching pull altitude quicker than the belly flyers.

Idiots - see the link below (it's a real bad idea to use vertical separation as a criteria - people get killed)

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Also, the FF are typically (but not always) flying smaller, faster canopies so they should be below the larger slower canopies.

This is such an idiodic assumption that it's hard to verbalize how dangerous that is. I hope they realize that many newbies are going straight to FF sometimes, and they shouldn't normally have small/fast canopies yet. FF does not equal canopy/sport experience.

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But what happens when a slow-falling FF pulls at 4K and the RW flyer behind him doesn’t pull till 2.5K and then has a cutaway and ends up in/on/through the FF?

It's worse if the FF is falling fast not slow - it's about drift, not vertical separation - and the result is they may both die. See kallend's model

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Another dz thought it proper to put the AFF’s out with the RW groups before the FF. The response was that horizontal separation is better than vertical. Well what happens when that student (who is backsliding up jumprun) goes haywire and has to be dumped out at 7K as the FF are coming through the same altitude? Doesn’t make for a pretty situation.

This isn't such a bad idea really as you do get horizontal separation. Except that it takes a lot of time to stage a student, they do open high, and most sport jumpers won't wait long enough between exits and you'd have ff'ers piling out right behind students. Students later, with qualified instructors and the option to take a separate pass for students and tandems is a good option to have. I have to think on this one.

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I like the idea the swooper’s have during competition with WL high to low but then you split up disciplines.

Nuts - if swooping is the goal, get out on a separate pass, out low, etc. especially if there is not a separate landing area. The fact that someone wants to tack on a swoop at the end of a freefall jump has no bearing on their fallrates and relative freefall drift. And the argument for this exit order is based on them landing in order, not avoiding freefall collisions. NUTS, and very selfish

Kallend's stuff but animated and placed on omniskore - play with it and get a ton of knowledge. But remember - wind layers aren't always in the same direction, jump runs aren't always up the windline, people do stupid things anyway. But the model is great for figuring it out.
http://www.omniskore.com/freefall_drift2.html

People that don't follow the advice he has here are not being safe and they are making excuses for some stupid reason to feed their ego for some mistaken reason or another.

The key point - we don't want to be hit by someone in freefall while we are already under canopy.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[cheneyneel 0]

One thing, you do know that if you are flying on your belly and you are at a DZ that puts out FF first that you need to wait an especially long time before you get out, no matter the assholes screaming at you from the front of the airplane........ I spend alot of time FFing and only on jumps with heavy movement like angle flight or something will I get out first by choice... but I have been to a few DZs that put them/us out first and did not like it at all.. in fact scares the shit out of me.......

though I trully believe that it is wrong to put FF out first, if a belly formation opens on top of a group that exited before them(no matter the deployment altitude) then it is their fault not the group before them no matter the type of skydiving.....

[brettpobastad 0]

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I’m wondering if anybody has really figured out the best order

What I find quite humoros abut this whole thing is that differant dropzones have differant philosophies about exit order. You show up at a new DZ and, if appropriate, you are told or shown the policies and procedures. Does anyone ever ask the person giving the briefing why they do it this way?

Here's what I think: There are two types of separation between jumpers, horizontal and vertical. Realize that when all is said and done, you need equal amounts of both. Vertical seperation happens naturally and shouldn't be fucked with. On the other hand, horizontal separation has to be 'acted upon' or 'reacted to', so to speak. In other words, the jumper can more easily affect it.

All things being equal, and taking into consideration the particular needs and circumstances of the individual dz, here's the way to do it:

Fastest falling, lowest opening out first. Slowest / highest out last. Freefly, relative work (big to small), AFF, tandem, CRW, wing. Count to six (or whatever) for horizontal seperation. establish landing pattern procedures and no spiraling.

Simple.

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[Frenchy68 0]

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Slowest / highest out last. Freefly, relative work (big to small), AFF, tandem, CRW, wing. Count to six (or whatever) for horizontal seperation

Question: an 8 way HD out first, 6 seconds later an 8 way RW (hypothetical, since an 8 way would take longer to launch than 6 secs... Make it a 4 way). Aren't they going to be right on top of each other at opening altitude? Which would negate all horizontal separation, therefore relying purely on vertical separation? Just wondering.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[speedy 0]

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Fastest falling, lowest opening out first. Slowest / highest out last.

I sincerely hope you do either a cross/with wind drop run. Then at least most of the time that would be O.K. Otherwise your thinking is severely flawed.

It has been discussed to death on these forums, do a search and learn something.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[Remster 30]

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Fastest falling, lowest opening out first. Slowest / highest out last. Freefly, relative work (big to small), AFF, tandem, CRW, wing. Count to six (or whatever) for horizontal seperation. establish landing pattern procedures and no spiraling.

Simple.

Please please please read up on this. Your thinking is severly flawed.


http://www.omniskore.com/freefall_drift2.html

Remster

[popsjumper 2]

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Fastest falling, lowest opening out first. Slowest / highest out last. Freefly, relative work (big to small), AFF, tandem, CRW, wing. Count to six (or whatever) for horizontal seperation. establish landing pattern procedures and no spiraling.

Simple.

Please please please read up on this. Your thinking is severly flawed.


http://www.omniskore.com/freefall_drift2.html

Thanks, Remster....you may have saved someone's ass.....or a least another incident report....

Why in the world would a DZ alter these basics.....crosswind jump runs maybe? I'm asking.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[feuergnom 28]

additional material on exit separation can be found on skratch garrisons site

don't miss the other stuff - this guy has a lot to say and offer

just to mess everybody up two more links
dealing with uppers 1
dealing with uppers 2

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[billvon 2,990]

>Fastest falling, lowest opening out first.

I just wrote an article for Skydiving magazine about this, but basically that's the most dangerous way to put people out if jump run is into the wind. In extreme cases, you could have people stacked on top of each other at opening times, if the upper winds are strong enough.

Opening altitude separation _could_ work great, if people never pulled low or high, had altimeter problems, had snivels or slammers, or malfunctions. I bet you have had at least one of these; they negate the advantages of vertical separation pretty quickly.

[rehmwa 2]

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though I trully believe that it is wrong to put FF out first, if a belly formation opens on top of a group that exited before them(no matter the deployment altitude) then it is their fault not the group before them no matter the type of skydiving.....

I got to put it on the whoever advocated that horrible exit order policy. I've been to a DZ like that and have had some pretty public arguments about it. I'd delay MUCH longer also - you are right, we are responsible for ourselves here.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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>Fastest falling, lowest opening out first.

I just wrote an article for Skydiving magazine about this, but basically that's the most dangerous way to put people out if jump run is into the wind. In extreme cases, you could have people stacked on top of each other at opening times, if the upper winds are strong enough.

Opening altitude separation _could_ work great, if people never pulled low or high, had altimeter problems, had snivels or slammers, or malfunctions. I bet you have had at least one of these; they negate the advantages of vertical separation pretty quickly.

He had to have been trolling, nobody is that ignorant.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,990]

>nobody is that ignorant.

You'd be suprised. I've talked to people who didn't know their reserve had a spring loaded pilot chute. I remember talking to one guy who knew you couldn't land downwind because the wind would come from behind your canopy and stall it.

[brettpobastad 0]

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It has been discussed to death on these forums, do a search and learn something.

I am trying to learn something, I'm also trying to teach something.

...but you haven't been around long enough yet, have you, sonny?

Brett

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[andybr6 0]

I jump at a fairly large [by U.K] standards D.Z in England. The exit order there is as follows...Solo FF, Group FF, Then RW large to small groups. At least I am fairly sure that is what it is, I could have the FF group size confused. Having only done 3 FF jumps on quiet days I have very little experience. However the key point is faster fallers first. As far as I am aware it has always been done this way and there has never been an incident or issue because of the order. I am not challenging your theory but am trying to learn something. Has the exit order that my D.Z uses resulted in incidents? Should I be concerned as a new 'Freeflyer' about this policy? If so would you recomend presenting the evidence listed here to some instructors at my D.Z?

Thanks

A

------------------------------------------------

"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm also trying to teach something.

I think his point is you are trying to teach something dangerous and incorrect. (BTW, large RW formations will typically fall slower not faster. Also, a cavalier "6 seconds" between groups approach is really off, separation between groups depends quite a bit on the difference in speed at altitude vs ground winds. Sometimes a quick climbout is fine, sometimes 20 seconds or more is not unreasonable.

Try out Kallend's model on the Omniskore site - You'll be very surprised that what you are 'teaching' is off - even though good intentioned.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Should I be concerned as a new 'Freeflyer' about this policy? If so would you recomend presenting the evidence listed here to some instructors at my D.Z?

Yes and YES - They are wrong and completely relying on the "big sky" theory to the exclusion of basic skydiving safety.

Hopefully they are open enough to listen to facts and to look at really good models on this - and not let their egos get in the way of changing a terrible policy for the sake of their clients'/friends' safety.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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>nobody is that ignorant.

You'd be suprised. I've talked to people who didn't know their reserve had a spring loaded pilot chute. I remember talking to one guy who knew you couldn't land downwind because the wind would come from behind your canopy and stall it.

I know, Bill, I've heard worse too. Once you have someone in freefall go right through your cluster of open canopies, these types of threads are just really scary. And the proof is very simple and makes perfect sense if you just look at it.

But those that disagree will likely not even take a look at John's model, or just dismiss it - as simple as it is. Once you understand the concept of freefall drift, then it's easy to see which days make sense for FF's to get out first or last or when it doesn't matter. But we all should know this. Or at least know that under 'normal' conditions slow to fast fallrate is the best way of playing the odds if they are too lazy to actually check the wind layers during the day.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[popsjumper 2]

I guess the SIM is optional reading.
It's amazing to me that so many people that jump out of airplanes haven't read the SIM and make up shit as they go.

Section 2-1 Pre-jump Requirements
Section 5-7 Group Separation on Jump Run
etc., etc.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rehmwa 2]

THANKS, I haven't had a SIM in 15 years. Silly, it's online and free.

http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2005SIM/SIM.htm

Section 2-1 requires ground and altitude winds be determined before any jump. Other stuff. Nothing about exit order though.

Section 5-7 subsection C considers freefall drift and separation between groups. (Note that time between groups is for GROUND SEPARATION, not exit separation, so knowing the winds is critical - if it's windy at altitude, then wait longer between groups. The exit order content assumes the uppers are faster than ground and that they are in the same direction and jump run is into the wind - this is standard. If we operate a non-standard jump run or winds are screwy, then a DZ should take that into account that day)

"C. Group separation on jump run

Back to Section 5-7


1. Slower-falling jumpers and groups are exposed to upper headwinds longer and are blown farther downwind than faster-falling jumpers and groups.


a. Slower-falling groups should exit before faster-falling groups if jump run is flown into the wind.

b. On days with strong upper headwinds, allow more time between groups on the same pass to get sufficient horizontal separation over the ground.


(1) Provide at least 1,000 feet of ground separation between individuals jumping solo.

(2) Provide at least 1,500 feet of ground separation between small groups, adding more as size of the groups increases.

c. Once the parachute has opened, delay flying up or down the line of flight until—


(1) Any slower-falling group that exited before has opened their parachutes and turned toward the landing area.

(2) The group exiting after has completed their freefall and opened.

2. Flying jump run across the upper winds (crosswind) helps achieve separation between groups.

3. Whether flying one or more aircraft, each pass should allow enough time for jumpers on a previous pass to descend to a safe altitude before dropping jumpers from the next pass."

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[brettpobastad 0]

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You'll be very surprised that what you are 'teaching' is off - even though good intentioned.

Hmmm, interesting reply. The thing about this dz.com forum kind of thing is that the subtle nuances of conversation and debate get lost in translation. So I'm gonna go easy on you this time. Plus, you've been around for awhile (apparently) and you deserve a modicum of respect.

You are about as closed to getting my point as you would be to hitting an F-16 with a potato gun. I know about separation and ground winds and climb-outs and cameras turning off and go-arounds and a hundred other factors (like turn-around times and aircraft staging, etc.) that you might not have a clue about. I know that larger relative work formations 'typically' fall 'slower not faster'. No shit!

You do have me on one point. Teaching. I should have used the term 'point out'. (For you young-un's, service industry professionals and croutons that means 'to make aware of' or in your case 'to be made aware of')

What I was 'pointing out' was that the 'drop zone' establishes the 'rules' concerning all of this. The unstated inference is that they have a 'very good reason' for doing it this way and any other way is 'dangerous and incorrect'. At the same time, the next dz down the pike has a whole different set of procedures and policies and they also have 'very good reasons'

...blaa,blaa,blaa Charlie Brown's teacher.

They make the rules, scare you with 'em, you follow the rules or get chewed out by someone at the dz that doesn't understand 'the rules' and nobody ever questions them. Thats my point.

A secondary point I was trying to make (and you can call this 'teaching' if you want) was a general view of the relationship between vertical and horizontal separation and the skydivers relationship to, and effect on it. I thought I was pretty clear on that (see second sentence above). I was not, in any way, trying to map out a strategy for everyone and every dropzone and every situation and every aircraft. For two reasons, one, it's not my job and dropzone owners won't listen to me anyway (even though a lot of them should) and two, there are a whole lot of different 'situations' out there. maybe I was too lazy to list them all.

Those are my points. Simple!

Brett

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[rehmwa 2]

No amount of time in the sport will change the laws of physics. And nothing changes your specific recommendation where you are trying to emphasize vertical separation (inconsistent) over horizontal separation (controllable). It's a bad idea if you have 2 months in the sport or 40 years, Sonny.

A DZ can make the rules. A responsible jumper will go find out the rules and be very careful when those rules are wrong and prone to cause danger. If the rules are completely out to lunch, then they have a decision to make about jumping there - don't they?

As far as 'no shit' - your words "faster falling out first" then "RW big to small" which is it? (I was being a bit blatant there tho) I'll go back and reread your first post - it is possible you weren't advocating a bad exit order strategy, just showing a bad one as an example of what uninformed DZO's could do - in that case, I'll apologize. But if you really think that vertical separation is more important the horizontal, then your time in sport is goofy on at least this subject.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Here's the one:

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Here's what I think: There are two types of separation between jumpers, horizontal and vertical. Realize that when all is said and done, you need equal amounts of both. Vertical seperation happens naturally and shouldn't be fucked with. On the other hand, horizontal separation has to be 'acted upon' or 'reacted to', so to speak. In other words, the jumper can more easily affect it.

Vertical separation is very dependent on when the jumper pulls. That cannot be counted on. Don't try to use it. Exit order is easily affected and directly effects separation of groups. So does time between groups. I think your note is either unclear or you got it exactly backwords. So I won't back down on this one

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here's the way to do it: Fastest falling, lowest opening out first. Slowest / highest out last. Freefly, relative work (big to small), AFF, tandem, CRW, wing. Count to six (or whatever) for horizontal seperation. establish landing pattern procedures and no spiraling.

Simple.

Your exit order for FF and RW is backwords based on horizontal separation (the only thing you can count on). I also did gig on the "(or whatever)" statement for the same reason. I still feel that way after the reread. I understand good reasons for your placement of AFF, Tandem and CRW. I don't know where to put wing suits - I see your logic in the order, but it still opens up concerns unless you really trust the skydiver to stay away from the flight line - they can travel so far as to get away or into anybody on the load and with tandems opening high, that's a scary position

our D numbers are within 7 of each other - what did you do for your first 9 years in the sport?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,990]

>Has the exit order that my D.Z uses resulted in incidents?

Yes; that's why most US DZ's now use RW-first.

>Should I be concerned as a new 'Freeflyer' about this policy?

Yes, especially if you are in the last freefly group out. You are at high risk for coming close to the first RW group especially with strong uppers.

>If so would you recomend presenting the evidence listed here to
>some instructors at my D.Z?

You can give it a shot. They may laugh at you and say "you're going to believe something you saw on the net?"

Sometime in the near future, an article I wrote may appear in Skydiving magazine on this very subject. It has pictures, graphs, stories etc and they may take that more seriously, even if it's basically the same information.