What's the point of the Incident/Fatality Thread...

[skykittykat 0]

I was involved in a discutssion today about the validity of the Incidents thead, which has basically become a "Fatality" thread.

There are pros and cons for such a thread. When a fatality happens, those posts that say "I know who died" without any information as to how the fatality happened only panic people hoping that the person/people they know skydiving there is not that person who died...

Instead of posting "I know who died" and not stating the cause of the death is a little attention seeking.

In reply, I said to the person I was having the discussion with, that the Incidents Thread, even though it is more and more about fatalities, showed that in this day and age, people are losing their lives from their poor judgement.

Why, in the year 2005 (2006 in the UK, Ausl, NZ when I posted this!!!), are more people being killed under perfectly landable canopies???

I personally think that the Incidents Forum is a great place for people to learn.

I do, however, have little patiiance for those threads that discuss a fatility from a low turn. We all konw that a low turn can potentially kill you. Discussing it teaches nothuing rather than turning too low can kill....

Liz

[NelKel 0]

educaaaaaaaaaaaaaation!

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[NlghtJumper 0]

I agree with you... but as said, it is for education. If the proper information is posted, then those of us who pay attention to the mistakes of others can know not to do it if they are in a simlar situation...

A man will do anything for the right woman,
and when that woman destroys him,
that man will become a hunk of meat with the common sense of a rodeo clown! ~ Christopher Titus

[BIGUN 1,317]

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educaaaaaaaaaaaaaation!

Bullshit. The only thing you're educated on in the Incidents Forum is who was the first to post and who got injured or killed followed by an emotional discussion.

The quality of information collection and metrics for the beginning stages of education would be greatly enhanced by an Incidents Forum Form; first to post would be required to fill out the form.

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We all know that a low turn can potentially kill you. Discussing it teaches nothing rather than turning too low can kill....

And there you have it. We can chant education and post a matrix of recommended W/L sizes all day long, but that is still just discussion and will do nothing to lower the "Hook Turn Fatality" numbers. In fact, the trendline would indicate it's increase. And cutsie phrases like; "Skydivers will learn new ways to kill themselves no matter how safe you try to make it" or saying the trend-line is going up is because there's more skydivers to the sport is a cop-out.

OK - so, therein lies the problem. The solution; let's have a skill level test before downsizing. For example; BillVon's downsizing checklist is a great place to start and I think every DZ ought to adopt a policy of having the S&TA watch that person perform all the maneuvers prior to being signed-off for downsizing prior to EACH downsizing.

In every military, industry, profession, there is some form of selection criteria before being accepted to the next level. For example; you think anyone can walk in the door of the Air Force and say I wanna fly A-10's or F-117s? But yet, anyone beyond (or not) the [recommended] 500+ jumps which can now be obtained in six months can plop down 2 grand, buy a X-braced canopy and go learn... Not get educated; but go learn. Big difference.

Let's face it; we belong to an organization of recommendations, rather than rules. And, until we're ready to do what's right, rather than what's popular and formalize some rules for canopy downsizing, like formalized endorsements, nothing is going to change. We can recommend you NOT buy a X-Braced canopy and jump it at 2:1 to everyone; but not everyone and very few anyone's will get educated by _just_ another hook turn fatality thread.

Let's not B.S. each other, huh? The Incidents Forum ain't about education; it's about being first to post.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[ripcord4 0]

BIGUN....right on. Too bad no one will pay any attention. You are correct - there is a huge difference between education and learning - I have known some very intelligent, "educated" people that could not pour water out of a boot with the instructions printed on the heel. Common sense is very uncommon.

[NelKel 0]

I wouldn't start a thread in incidents unless I had all the facts, and was a wittness having first hand information.

Who (out of respect may remain nameless)
What
When
Where
How
Why

Often these are not included in the first post. Sometimes posters are asking about an incident they heard about, and think others may have the answers. Sometimes threads never reach a conclusion as the facts are never known.

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[NelKel 0]

Incidents
A forum to report, discuss and learn from actual incidents, fatal and non-fatal. Let's learn from our own mistakes honor those people who've passed on by not making the same mistakes. <<<<<<<<<


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educaaaaaaaaaaaaaation!

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Bullshit. The only thing you're educated on in the Incidents Forum is who was the first to post and who got injured or killed followed by an emotional discussion.

The quality of information collection and metrics for the beginning stages of education would be greatly enhanced by an Incidents Forum Form; first to post would be required to fill out the form<<<<<<<<
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I understand what you mean brother! But if we want to learn from the mistakes of others some one has to be the first to post it.
What I have learned from the hook turns was

1. Use front risers, not toggles. It keeps the cells pressurized so a pilot can dig out of a low turn.

2. Learn how to do braked approaches, and fly in breaks. Learn how to flat turns.

3. Realize I do not have the experience to do hook turns and should not do them. I could seriously injure myself.

4. There are canopy control courses.

All of these I learned from the incident forum, by reading the mistakes of others. I had to learn to filter through the emotional posts.

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[billvon 2,998]

>The only thing you're educated on in the Incidents Forum is who was the
>first to post and who got injured or killed followed by an emotional
>discussion.

From talking to readers of that forum, I have discovered that the following things have been learned over the course of the last year or so:

-a cypres can fire during a long swoop
-if you turn your cypres on at home, it may not work
-turbulence can be caused by large objects upwind
-toggles must be knotted or sewn, not just fingertrapped
-you can stall a canopy during a swoop-recovery attempt
-hard openings can actually kill you
-too-slow openings can be bad if you pull low
-RSL's can pose a snag hazard during a two-out cutaway

Now, should all those things have been known already? Probably. (Although the cypres firing in a swoop was a new one.) But in the real world, some skydivers don't know this stuff, and thus reading about it can teach them something.

Education is the key to surviving in our sport. That education can come from many places, including primary (the FJC) word of mouth, PARACHUTIST and Incident reports. The Incidents forum is just one small part of the informal sources of information available to jumpers after they have exhausted the possibilities of 'formal' education.

[Scrumpot 1]

Also, how many people did not know about the "hole" that could exist (and in what potential situations/exposures) in their harness systems? I'm sure there are actually even many other items too if people truly paid attention to CONTENT, rather than worried so much sometimes even more about just either who, or why (trying to second guess so many's strictly supposed motivations) some people may be posting. Or worse yet... getting into those incessant (and tiresome) "debates" over who either should at any given time, or should not be posting, and trying to play themselves, constant "quasi moderator". That is the stuff in there that tends to distract (and "frost" me) the most.

I've found in my 4 years or so of coming on here, and paying attention to (or trying to) the incidents forum, that it has had its "value", and I have learned (albeit in many cases, both sadly and unfortunately) in fact quite a bit. Even despite some people's apparent frustration with the signal to noise ratio, that does seem sometimes granted, to be evidenced. So what's the "solution"? Bigun's (and others) suggested thread-initiating user-form submission to a moderator requirement? Would we (or you then Bill) leave (or edit) out, seemingly redundant "just another hook turn bounce" INCIDENTS as a result? Should we??

Here's to a happy, and hopefully SAFER for us all, new year 2006 with a lot LESS incidents threads postings regardless, ...and in ANY case!

-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[BIGUN 1,317]

Point taken, There are incidents that can be read and perhaps used for learning if someone takes that information back to the DZ and real learning takes place.

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The Incidents forum is just one small part of the informal sources of information available to jumpers after they have exhausted the possibilities of 'formal' education.

I don't think there's any of us on here that are opposed to more education, but we can't just say it without formalizing knowledge transfer. I think dz.com [is] and the Incidents Forum can be the greatest single source, rather than just a small part.

If we're talking about real education, then what about; 1. A form would put a required amount of information on the thread 2. One the moderators could lock the thread, create a new thread Safety & Training thread and reciprocally hyperlink that Incident and S&T thread, then point to the white papers, seminars, or other learning venues (as has been done on occasion). 3. The moderator could initiate an email to all the registered DZs on dz.com and DZs could use that information as either part of their formalized training or incorporate the most categories of incidents into Safety Day.

Food for thought

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[skytash 0]

Although I agree with you Liz, that we (both you and I and lots of others) know that hook turns can kill, every day there a new people joining the sport and the forums. I hope that they realise is how many injuries and deaths are as a result of low turns, get scared and talk to their instructors. It is frustrating and sad how many similar incidents are posted, however not everyone here has been around the sport long enough to see just how many people are hurt this way and seek to learn how to avoid having a thread about them.

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[AFFI 0]

This may not be a liberal friendly thing to say but every now and then we need the sacrificial lamb to remind the rest of us paying attention that we are finite in our existence and despite how much testosterone we are drenched with, we are mortal. So few human beings die as a result of turning a parachute too low to the ground be it a high performance landing or a low maneuver to take evasive action to miss an obstacle that it will do little to assist in reducing the surplus population BUT when I see someone laying in a pool of their own blood with piss and shit in their pants hearing the gurgling as they choke on their last breaths it is personally a good example for me to consider when it comes to the choices I make when choosing a canopy type and size and method of fight. That is education in and of itself in one form.

Wanting to be involved and gossip and rant and rave is just the nature of human beings when so many who either know or think they know so much assemble in one place to give their opinions. I have the mouse in my hands and I decide if I want to read the fluff or cut through it and look at the information that will assist me in my survival and increase my knowledge of how to teach others safe canopy piloting practices that will better ensure that they reduce their odds at becoming a fatality.

That being said there is the compassionate part of me that wants to make my own picket sign and call for more regulation to keep people safer to force them to choose more suitable canopies, conversely lets not forget that not all fatalities are a result of turning to low are high performance landing attempts, many are conservative canopy pilots that made poor decisions when taking evasive maneuvers low to the ground to miss an obstacle. The Braked Approach and Landing is on the A License Proficiency Card to encourage skydivers to learn such skills, so should we force canopy pilots to make better canopy choices and force everyone to learn skills that will keep the canopy overhead when the shit hits the fan when they are low to the ground? Where will the mandates and regulations end? Next think ya know we will be living in a society that outlaws possession of certain plants to save us from ourselves and that would be simply ludicrous.

It is what it is right now and skydiving accidents; although unfortunate and almost always avoidable happen so rarely that most skydivers do not appreciate the reality of them for what they are because they are so rarely seen. I have seen accidents and close calls cause some to reconsider their future course of action and I have seen some not get the second chance and many have learned from these sacrificial lambs – some would say that everything is coincidence and some that would say that nothing happens in this world by chance, it is all by design. Irregardless of what an individual personally believes, the fact is that some will crater and it is up to us as individuals whether we will learn from their mistakes or decide instead that we need to look cool in front of the spectators and dive recklessly at the ground since the spectators cannot see how cool we are in freefall.

For me there is more than one way to land a parachute and I really want to sleep with my wife this evening and see my family on the holidays so I personally decide to learn and become proficient at every conceivable mode of flight – besides, I am not feeling the need to look cool these days so will stick with my Stiletto and Wal-Mart shoes.

Footnote: a recently graduated A License holder made a few poor decisions in setting up and was on a direct collision course with a tree line, I was watching intently and prepared to run that way to keep her still until more help arrived with the back board and other life saving goodies. At around 150 feet AGL she went into braked flight mode, visually cleared her airspace to the right away from other obstacles and preformed a perfect flat turn and braked PLF landing. I was so proud of her and refreshed that I did not have to see one of the pretty faces at the DZ get injured. Afterward I approached her and she thought she was going to get a talking too for doing something wrong rather than a pat on the back for a job well done. She was one that studied and continued to do so after she graduated and when one of her mentor’s talks to her she listens and humbly takes advice given from those of us who have learned in part from the sacrificial lambs whose divots I trip in when catching tandems.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Andrelr 0]

The information may arrive on the forum haphazardly with some peculiar opinions at times. That's the nature of the forum. No-one fills out a form here.
I still find it educational. I've read incident reports all my skydiving career and have learned a great deal from them

[riggerrob 643]

The "Incidents" Forum cures us of our bad habits.

For 20 years, I read USPA Fatality reports religiously and they cured me of several bad habits, like waving off with my pilot chute.

Even with the high noise-to-signal-ratio on dz.com forums, I still try to learn something every week.

Try to learn from the mistakes of others as you will never live long enough to learn from your own mistakes.

[airtwardo 7]

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the sacrificial lamb

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I tend to think of it as 'Thinning The Herd'...

Excellent post!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Ron 10]

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Bullshit. The only thing you're educated on in the Incidents Forum is who was the first to post and who got injured or killed followed by an emotional discussion.

I don't agree with that. YOU may know some of the things out there, but remember that an average skydiver jumps for about three years. We have new people coming everyday and they may not know some of the "old" facts.

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The quality of information collection and metrics for the beginning stages of education would be greatly enhanced by an Incidents Forum Form; first to post would be required to fill out the form.

I sugested this years ago to Sangiro. A new thread would need to be screened by someone before it could be posted. It needed to have some facts such as: Date, Location, type of accident, gear if known, WL if applicable....ect.

I also suggested (and it seems to be used now) that all Subject lines have the location and date so as not to confuse.

Still I like the idea of all new *threads* to be screened before being posted.

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Let's not B.S. each other, huh? The Incidents Forum ain't about education; it's about being first to post

While I think a good number of posters are attention seeking....I know a good bit that try and educate others.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[beowulf 1]

I like your style Not PC, but so real.

[BIGUN 1,317]

My cry of "Bullshit" was to the comment of it's "Education." Exposure and education are two very different subjects.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[NelKel 0]

My cry of "Bullshit" was to the comment of it's "Education." Exposure and education are two very different subjects<<<<<


I resemble that remark

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[Ron 10]

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My cry of "Bullshit" was to the comment of it's "Education." Exposure and education are two very different subjects.

OK but without exposure you can't have education.

I get sick of the people who defend the person because the person was nice.

The ground does not care how nice you are. It does not care what you planned to do, or tried to do. It only cares what happend.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jumperconway 0]

Let's not B.S. each other, huh? The Incidents Forum ain't about education; it's about being first to post.

I was the first to post about the 2 out incident at Spaceland. I witnessed it first hand. I didn't post the name, irrelative. I posted it so that newwer jumpers could learn from someonelses brain lock. I happen to think it lead to a worthwhile discussion. I sent an email to AFFI as he was circling the victom yelling at him to cutaway for info. I checked with the manifest the next day to get relative info on physical damage.

[popsjumper 2]

There's info in there that can be used for education....it's just buried under so much BS that it's hard to pick out unless you are very, very patient.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239