schon267 0 #1 December 27, 2005 I'm a low time jumper with a question about exit order. pretty much every load i've been on during my short jumping time has been this order: big groups first, small ways, solo's, aff, tandems, wingsuits, high hop n pops. I think this has pretty much been the order? everybody is always good about communicating with each other before getting on the plane, plus the instructors help organize orders. my question is about free flyers? the last load I did, me and another guy we're doing a 2-way, there was a gruop of free flyers that said we should go first? before them. I would think that since my 2-way was a belly fall, that they would go before us? because to me they will be falling faster. is there a difference of opinions with you guys with a lot of jumps about this exit order? free flyers before belly fallers or vice a versa? just trying to understand what's best??? thanks for the help!! just got my A license, only took me 40 jumps lol (it was the packing that delayed it) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freefalle 0 #2 December 27, 2005 This topic come up often. It depends on what DZ you are at the order in which you will exit. Some places put the freeflyers out before the flat flyers some put them out before. Arguements for both opinions vary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #3 December 27, 2005 This makes more since to me than any thing else I have read Other post by Bryan Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #4 December 27, 2005 There are already over 1,500 posts on DZ.COM on the topic. www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=exit+order&search_type=AND&search_fields=sb&search_time=&search_user_username=&sb=score&mh=25... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #5 December 27, 2005 You are right - freefliers fall faster than belly fliers. That's actually why some DZs wand the freefliers to get out later. Can you figure out why someone would want faster fallers to get out after slower fallers? (Certainly you can search the other posts and get the info that way, but if you don't want to search, you have an excellent Socratic learning opportunity.) -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #6 December 27, 2005 HeHe, I am a newbie but I know that one. and in this case high uppers magnify this fact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
schon267 0 #7 December 27, 2005 I know now, I read bryan burkes take on it, thank's for the help Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #8 December 27, 2005 QuoteHeHe, I am a newbie but I know that one. and in this case high uppers magnify this fact. Low uppers make this "fact" almost a nullity. A Crosswind jumprun makes it completely irrelevant. A Downwind jumprun (it happens) and the faster fallers should exit first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #9 December 28, 2005 QuoteLow uppers make this "fact" almost a nullity. A Crosswind jumprun makes it completely irrelevant. A Downwind jumprun (it happens) and the faster fallers should exit first. Yep, got that part too but I didn't want to say too much in case frognog was expecting an answer from schon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #10 December 28, 2005 QuoteQuoteHeHe, I am a newbie but I know that one. and in this case high uppers magnify this fact. Low uppers make this "fact" almost a nullity. A Crosswind jumprun makes it completely irrelevant. A Downwind jumprun (it happens) and the faster fallers should exit first. A bit oversimplified. Even in no wind a head downer will travel significantly farther along the line of flight than a belly flier (some 400 - 500 ft farther under "typical" conditions). When there's a wind (head or tail) both wind drift AND that need to be taken into account, so you need to make allowances for that even on a downwind jumprun.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #11 December 28, 2005 >Low uppers make this "fact" almost a nullity. True. If uppers are zero (or close to zero) it doesn't much matter. However, since jump runs are usually into the wind, and uppers below 10kts are pretty rare, "RW first" is a very good rule of thumb. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #12 December 30, 2005 Quote Even in no wind a head downer will travel significantly farther along the line of flight than a belly flier (some 400 - 500 ft farther under "typical" conditions). How so? This element seems to go beyond the basic "faster falling = less time in the relative wind". The theory then becomes far more complex and thus unpredictable. What's the theory behind this? And what controlled observations have actually supported it? Not just computer programs that simulate the theory. Also head downers RARELY fall straight down unless they are with a ball. some translation in any direction is possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #13 December 30, 2005 Quote>Low uppers make this "fact" almost a nullity. True. If uppers are zero (or close to zero) it doesn't much matter. However, since jump runs are usually into the wind, and uppers below 10kts are pretty rare, "RW first" is a very good rule of thumb. It is a good rule of thumb. But it's important to know when conditions are deviating from those that gave rise to that rule. I've been at many dropzones where the jump run is typically up or down the runway with an offset to compensate for any cross wind component. I've also been on many a jump run that went long, but a 180 go around was preferred over a 360 and there were still a mix of flat and vertical flyers remaining. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #14 December 30, 2005 QuoteQuote Even in no wind a head downer will travel significantly farther along the line of flight than a belly flier (some 400 - 500 ft farther under "typical" conditions). How so? This element seems to go beyond the basic "faster falling = less time in the relative wind". The theory then becomes far more complex and thus unpredictable. What's the theory behind this? And what controlled observations have actually supported it? Not just computer programs that simulate the theory. A head down flier will travel farther horizontally while on the hill immediately following exit. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #15 December 30, 2005 although not from experience, but from a little mathematics and common sense I am following this thread with no problem. As I said before, this is something that I have studied and understood before now, However, QuoteA head down flier will travel farther horizontally while on the hill immediately following exitI am not following this. Can someone explain further please? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #16 December 31, 2005 Quotealthough not from experience, but from a little mathematics and common sense I am following this thread with no problem. As I said before, this is something that I have studied and understood before now, However, QuoteA head down flier will travel farther horizontally while on the hill immediately following exitI am not following this. Can someone explain further please? Let's assume aircraft velocity on jump run is constant, so that at the moment of exit, all jumpers have the same velocity (speed and direction). Let's also assume level flight, and unchanging body positions. Since belly fliers present a greater surface area to the relative wind than a head down jumpers do, the resistance due to air is going to be greater for the belly flier. Remember, they are exiting with the same velocities. The only difference is the surface area presented to the relative wind. Since the belly fliers experience more air resistance, with respect to the horizontal component of their velocities, their horizontal component of the velocity will go to zero more quickly. The horizontal component of the head down fliers' velocity goes to zero less quickly, which allows them to travel farther along the line of flight before they stop moving horizontally. I hope that helped. Perhaps Kallend, Billvon or someone else can explain it more eloquently. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #17 December 31, 2005 Damn, that makes so much sense I should have caught it the first time. I was still thinking of drift. Given a head wind jump run, drift would be in the opposite direction of the plane's travel. It never crossed my mind that you were talking about the same direction as the plane and actually supporting the big group out first idea. Now this brings up another question, just for curiosity sake. On a jump run with a strong head wind, a group of skydivers leaves the plane and naturally has a ground speed in the same direction as the plane until they are off the hill and falling straight down. Then they begin to drift back down the jump run towards the spot they originally jumped over. Will they reach that spot and if so at what point (alti) and how far will they pass it up in the opposite direction of the jump run? Obviously this would depend on the speed of the head wind, speed of the plane and size of the group. Whatever the answer to this question it still supports the idea that groups should exit from largest to smallest, I am just curious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #18 December 31, 2005 QuoteNow this brings up another question, just for curiosity sake. On a jump run with a strong head wind, a group of skydivers leaves the plane and naturally has a ground speed in the same direction as the plane until they are off the hill and falling straight down. Then they begin to drift back down the jump run towards the spot they originally jumped over. Will they reach that spot and if so at what point (alti) and how far will they pass it up in the opposite direction of the jump run? Obviously this would depend on the speed of the head wind, speed of the plane and size of the group. Whatever the answer to this question it still supports the idea that groups should exit from largest to smallest, I am just curious. Group size does not matter. And the answer to your great question is......Depends on a bunch of stuff. But yes, you can infact drift back to the exit point if the winds are strong enough. I have been in a plane and left after FF's and actually crossed over them and opened on the other side of them. The exits largest to smallest is really not about drift, its about seperation and exit window. A big group can take 10-15 seconds to get ready (so can a 4way, or a freefly team, but were talking normal). So lets say you have a 15 way (15 seconds to climb out and go), a two way RW (10 seconds), a two way FF (10) and a Tandem (15). If you start the climb out so that they EXIT in the "good spot window" the Bigway can climb out and exit just as they enter the window. If we put any group but the Tandem first (high puller), then you lose 5 seconds of exit window. To ensure seperation and the Tandem landing on, you might have a go around.."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #19 December 31, 2005 QuoteQuote Even in no wind a head downer will travel significantly farther along the line of flight than a belly flier (some 400 - 500 ft farther under "typical" conditions). How so? This element seems to go beyond the basic "faster falling = less time in the relative wind". The theory then becomes far more complex and thus unpredictable. What's the theory behind this? And what controlled observations have actually supported it? Not just computer programs that simulate the theory. Also head downers RARELY fall straight down unless they are with a ball. some translation in any direction is possible. Try throwing a dart and a badminton birdie horizontally with the same initial speed. Which goes farther?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #20 December 31, 2005 QuoteDamn, that makes so much sense I should have caught it the first time. I was still thinking of drift. Given a head wind jump run, drift would be in the opposite direction of the plane's travel. It never crossed my mind that you were talking about the same direction as the plane and actually supporting the big group out first idea. Now this brings up another question, just for curiosity sake. On a jump run with a strong head wind, a group of skydivers leaves the plane and naturally has a ground speed in the same direction as the plane until they are off the hill and falling straight down. Then they begin to drift back down the jump run towards the spot they originally jumped over. Will they reach that spot and if so at what point (alti) and how far will they pass it up in the opposite direction of the jump run? Obviously this would depend on the speed of the head wind, speed of the plane and size of the group. Whatever the answer to this question it still supports the idea that groups should exit from largest to smallest, I am just curious. Have you tried running my simulation at www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive. It allows you to play around with all kinds of scenarios like this and educate yourself.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #21 December 31, 2005 Quote I have been in a plane and left after FF's and actually crossed over them and opened on the other side of them. <<<<<<<<<<<< hummm, ok Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #22 December 31, 2005 QuoteTry throwing a dart and a badminton birdie horizontally with the same initial speed. Which goes farther? That is a damn good answer"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #23 December 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteTry throwing a dart and a badminton birdie horizontally with the same initial speed. Which goes farther? That is a damn good answer More applicable if the dart and birdie weigh the same.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #24 December 31, 2005 QuoteMore applicable if the dart and birdie weigh the same. True, but I think the result would be the same, if only less obvious."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #25 December 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteMore applicable if the dart and birdie weigh the same. True, but I think the result would be the same, if only less obvious. If the birdie were much heavier than the dart, it could go farther. But no need to split hairs further...People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
