Bigun and Riggerrob

[srsand1960 0]

After learning 6 trades, several long term hobbies, 12 years in my only profession and the experiences of my life.... I have learned the following to be a fact; when you start something new, doing it for the first time; (walking, eating, swimming, breaking bricks, sex, heck everything in life) you are unconsciously incompetent. "You have no idea what you don't know about what it is that you are trying to do".
As time goes on and you learn from teachers, books, videos, your experience or the experience of watching others, you become consciously incompetent.
"You realize how much there is that you don't know about whatever it is that you are trying to do".
With doing whatever it is more and more, giving whatever it is more time, you gain more experience you learn more and you become competent. "You are able to do it with confidence".
Then you reach a point where you just know and you are an expert at it, you are unconsciously competent. "You are able to teach".
I am consciously incompetent…. though I do have good canopy control and competent at landing under normal conditions:). However, as far as I am concerned about me jumping into a canopy purchase.... I figure that I will take your advice and the advice of my instructors and it will be my (2006) Christmas present to me. Thanks so much for taking the time to advise me and try to teach me something!

I have read some of the advice you two have given others and both of you give sound advice.... Though I don't drink, I owe you both a cold one
Another couple of questions.....
I was reading about skydiving accidents and deaths... there were a lot of accidents caused by collapsing your chute or hard turns at landing time. I read a post on here about pumping breaks so you don't "Stab" the toggles.
Q: I take it that toggles are the breaks or steering lines?
Q: What is stabbing the breaks?
Q: Will stabbing the breaks decrease the life of your chute?
Q: Why would someone want to collapse a chute or mess with a good canopy (outside of small corrections (where it doesn't take 3 to 5 seconds to obtain proper canopy control)) below 1000 ft?
These seem like a stupid questions but since the readers of this post already know that I am aware of the fact that I know nothing...., I feel qualified to ask the dumbest of questions especially with you two giving me advise that will keep me safer and happier in this awesome way of life.... that some call a sport.
Thanks
Steve

It doesn't matter how anyone else lives their life.... it matter how you live yours!

[Samurai136 0]

Q: I take it that toggles are the breaks or steering lines?
Brakes/ Steering lines are the same thing. Toggles are what you put your hands in at the end of the steering lines.

Q: What is stabbing the breaks? A rapid application of brakes.
Q: Will stabbing the breaks decrease the life of your chute? No.

Q: Why would someone want to collapse a chute or mess with a good canopy (outside of small corrections (where it doesn't take 3 to 5 seconds to obtain proper canopy control)) below 1000 ft? I don't know. As far as it being associated with possible incidents you may have read, canopy collapse is associated with flying thru turbulence, in general.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Superman32 0]

Purposefully collapsing your parachute under 1000ft ???

Stalling canopy at alti -- great fun

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[riggerrob 643]

I have read some of the advice you two have given others and both of you give sound advice.... Though I don't drink, I owe you both a cold one

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That's okay, because I don't drink either. Come New Year's Day 2006, I will be sober for 9 years.

As to why so many people hook turn themselves into the hospital (old school) or morgue (new school), try reading a few hundred accident reports in Parachutist magazine. Every month USPA publishes reports of skydivers hurting or killing themselves. I read them religiously for decades - and they cured me of a few bad habits (like waving off with my pilot chute) - but after 20 years they started to blurr together.
Ho! Hum! Same accident, different date .....
Hook turn fatalities can be broken down into three categories. The first group failed to plan and did not notice the wind sock until they were 100' off the ground before beginning a panic-turn into the wind. I remember DZO Jim Hooper threatening to ground me - during the 1980 Easter Boogie in Z-Hills - because I waited until 200' to look at a wind sock. The simplest way to prevent this sort of embarrassment is to glance at the wind sock as you walk out to meet the airplane. One minute of thinking about your landing pattern before boarding can save a month or two in the hospital.

The second group are similar in that they ignore (tunnel vision) other canopy traffic until too low, then stab a toggle in a panic-turn to avoid others. Extracting their craniums from their anuses 500' higher is the easiest way to prevent this sort of embarrassment.
Canopies should be flown the same way motorcycles are ridden: PARANOID!
Expect the other guy to do something stupid and give him plenty of room to be stupid.

Finally, the third group are unconscious incompetent young men who believe that since they have survived a couple hundred jumps on medium-sized canopies, now they must rapidly down-size to a canopy smaller than their IQ. Then they slam themselves into the ground - while trying to perform high-performance landings - before they have a clue what the sight-picture should look like as they turn onto final approach.
The best way to avoid joining the third group is admit that you are mortal and practice all of Bill Von's exercises before down-sizing. They will quickly show you how little you know about your existing canopy.

There are two reasons why hook turn injury rates skyrocketed during the 1990s. First, ZP fabric allowed people to jump much smaller canopies, so that hook turns that bruised people flying 220 square foot canopies, killed people flying 120 square foot canopies.
The other problem was that instruction lagged badly behind technology. Old school instructors just let young guys learn by the school of hard knocks, the same way they had under 220 square foot canopies.

Humor alert!!!
The author has a dry sense of humor that does not always translate well into print.
Yes several of my comments may come across as sarcastic, but I also suggested solutions.

[skybytch 273]

This is not a diss on the person who started this thread, but I'm wondering how someone can have 13 jumps and not have ever been told what toggles are?

[firstime 0]

***Expect the other guy to do something stupid and give him plenty of room to be stupid.

I live my life by this theory and not just in skydiving.

Well said

[srsand1960 0]

Thanks

It doesn't matter how anyone else lives their life.... it matter how you live yours!

[srsand1960 0]

The best way to avoid joining the third group is admit that you are mortal and practice all of Bill Von's exercises before down-sizing. They will quickly show you how little you know about your existing canopy.

I know who Bill Wilson is 5/18/01, but who is Bill Von?

It doesn't matter how anyone else lives their life.... it matter how you live yours!

[Samurai136 0]

Bill Von is a moderator on DZ.com, an experienced skydiver, and an all around level headed guy.
See link on canopy skills and downsizing:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=792344;search_string=downsizing%20canopy%20skills;#792344

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[srsand1960 0]

Thanks again Ken. I will check out the link you sent

It doesn't matter how anyone else lives their life.... it matter how you live yours!

[srsand1960 0]

RiggerRob,
I was out at Z-hill about a month ago and they had a little map where they asked me to show them what my landing pattern was. I found that to be helpful when coming in the plan was already formulated. For me there is still a lot to learn. My DZ is closed for the season and there is really no one that I have to ask with the questions that I have. In reading other posts it stimulates more questions and I will learn from the answers given.
Thanks

It doesn't matter how anyone else lives their life.... it matter how you live yours!

[Samurai136 0]

Certainly.

I would also encourage you to use the search posts feature at the top of this page. It can be challenging to find the exact answers but nearly all topics student skydivers ask have been discussed before.

You seem to have a good grouding in how people learn new skills. When I was a student, hungry for information, in addition to direct instruction, I read and re-read The Skydivers Handbook by Dan Poynter and Mike Turoff.

Blue Skies

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Andy9o8 2]

The toggles are the loop handles of the steering lines. The term is a carry-over from the "olden days", when steering lines had wooden or plastic toggles at the end to grasp; when they converted to loops, the term stuck. As the other poster said, the "steering lines" are synonymous with the "brakes" (note the spelling - it's not "breaks").

To stab the toggles means to rapidly pull down the toggles in a sudden motion (think of a "stabbing" motion), instead of in a smooth, dynamic motion. It's sometimes (though not always) associated with a panic maneuver, as in, "he waited too long before flaring, and stabbed the toggles at the last instant..."

Here's a link to a glossary of skydiving terms:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=35

[srsand1960 0]

Thanks Ken. I thought that I could ask you questions and you would either be able to tell me, or know where to go to get the answer. Bigun, told me about that book. I believe it was on the 24th when I ordered it on-line:) So, I should have it by the end of this week or early next week. I just joined the USPA the other day too. So, I'll start getting the parachutest mag. soon:) I also got a referral to the directory link that is on this site. I'm not sure how everything works around here but it seems like there are some malevolent, un-prudent people that are not afraid to voice their estimation of judgment on others. I almost reacted.... but better yet, I think I will kick back and watch what I've gotten myself into and email you with questions that I do have. At this point I don't have anyone else that I can ask and I do want (and will) learn.

It doesn't matter how anyone else lives their life.... it matter how you live yours!

[srsand1960 0]

Thanks AndyMan

It doesn't matter how anyone else lives their life.... it matter how you live yours!

[BIGUN 1,312]

Well, I'll take Rob's beers, but only after the light comes on.

There is a lot to learn and these forums are a great venue for pointing one in the right direction, but is no substitute for one-on-one with your instructors. There are numerous well-respected folks on this site. I can't even begin to list the number of folks on this site who've caused me pause and to go do some homework. BillVon is one example. Whether it's on here or in person. I always learn something new from him. His "Downsizing Checklist" was mandatory reading before I signed off an "A" License card. Had copies of it at the DZ. Students would ask me to sign their "A" License card, I would hand them a copy and say, "Read this first." Lisa (skybytch) has a great article in the Safety tab about purchasing gear that I point many new skydivers to, flyangel2 is about the only person who's half my size and when she sticks her finger in my face - I listen. Kallend, Winsor, hooknswoop, riggerrob, mjosparky, aggiedave, diverdriver, Tom Buchanan, and many others have all given me advice over the years. I listen, then I go do my homework.

All of them will tell you the same thing, Don't just listen to what we say on here - it's just guidance. Do your homework, talk to others, talk to the manufacturers, then make your decision.

To answer your specific questions:
Q: I take it that toggles are the brakes and steering lines?
A. This question really causes me to pause and I need to echo Lisa a bit. When you took the first jump course, did they not cover the toggles, as part of the system of brakes and steering lines?
Q: What is stabbing the breaks?
A. It can mean a couple of things, in the days of F111 canopies, it wasn't uncommon to hear one say, "Stab your brakes" as a point of emphasis to teach a student to flare harder. Or, I stabbed 'em too high. Now with ZP and highly-loaded ellipticals, I use the term because my canopy has a three step flare, so it's like stabbing three times, once when I plane level with the ground, another stab when I'm at a point in the landing where I'm losing lift, but still have too much ground speed and the final stab is to completely flare the canopy. Really, it's not stabbing as much as it's an old-term used in a new way. It's really just three smooth moves. Or, as Andy said, a reference to a panic manuever of waiting too long to flare and stabbing them in that "Oh Shit" moment. I "think" the thread your referring to was one about those who come in for landing and masturbate the toggles cause they think that slows them down on the landing, This is a bad habit to get into.
Q: Will stabbing the breaks decrease the life of your chute?
You really shouldn't be concerned about using the steering lines or brakes in decreasing the life of your canopy as much as your should to make checking the lower brake lines part of your maintenance regime. When they get frayed; get frayed and go get a rigger to look at them, they "may" need to change them out. If you look at the lower part of your steering lines, you'll see the lower part is actually separate from the steering lines (on most canopies).
Q: Why would someone want to collapse a chute or mess with a good canopy (outside of small corrections (where it doesn't take 3 to 5 seconds to obtain proper canopy control)) below 1000 ft?
A. I have no idea. At a 1000', you better be concentrating on the landing pattern and maintaining 360 degrees of awareness.

Some final advice before I bail, when you do get your gear, read the owner's manual for each component several times.

Have a Happy New Year and safe skydives.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[srsand1960 0]

Q: I take it that toggles are the brakes and steering lines?
A. This question really causes me to pause and I need to echo Lisa a bit. When you took the first jump course, did they not cover the toggles, as part of the system of brakes and steering lines?
Yes they probably did. However, if someone where to ask me what they were I couldn't tell them. Now I know.
If one doesn't ask one will not know.

It doesn't matter how anyone else lives their life.... it matter how you live yours!

[artistcalledian 0]

Quote

Q: I take it that toggles are the brakes and steering lines?
A. This question really causes me to pause and I need to echo Lisa a bit. When you took the first jump course, did they not cover the toggles, as part of the system of brakes and steering lines?
Yes they probably did. However, if someone where to ask me what they were I couldn't tell them. Now I know.
If one doesn't ask one will not know.

toggles are those loops you put your feet in when putting on your back-pack did you remember to pack your sandwhiches next to your main chute incase you get the nibbles on the way down?

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[Andy9o8 2]

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Thanks AndyMan

You're welcome.
Incidentally, there is another DZ.com-er whose handle is AndyMan, and he's not me. But his posts are pretty heads-up, so when you see his posts, take the time to read them.

[srsand1960 0]

Read the message... totally dug it. Your words hold truth. I understand the thoughts that drove them to the paper. Excellent advice Andy.
There are actually 4 people here that I will ask advice from now and you are one of them. I don't think I will post anything due to the nature of those who know all and say nothing (in business I call that blowviating).
I will be asking you questions when I can't find them doing a search or in the books I will be reading. Samuri136, You, Bigun and riggerrob seem to be interested in sharing experience and knowledge with others.... You four will be my giants and the shoulders that I will stand on when I need to learn something about skydiving.
I haven’t even been a member on this site for a week. Already there are a couple of folks on here that I will not take advice from nor would I trust their own rig packing.
Learning is fun and to me it is what makes life exciting. You live once and the quality of life within yourself is contingent upon how you treat others. Getting to a point where you can teach others is what it is about.
The reason that people act like the person who wrote the comment about the legs and sandwich is because that person holds no value in their own words or ideas. They are empty and do not understand the dynamics of how to give freely of what they find, so that they can cultivate the wisdom to become one with what it is they are doing and with themselves. Though they may have many jumps and know much about the sport, they are unconsciously incompetent when it comes to what makes skydiving, scuba diving, archery, martial arts, music or anything else they do, a part of them. This also is a reflection of how they find their way in life. I feel sorry for them but there is nothing that anyone can do for them. So, I will not waste my time with response.
I know I have found a couple of really good teachers I respect really quickly. That in itself is worth much to me. The information that you guys give to me I will pass on when it comes time for me to do so, just like I have with all of the other things that I have gotten consciously competent with.

It doesn't matter how anyone else lives their life.... it matter how you live yours!

[srsand1960 0]

Bigun, I really don't have an instructor. I was doing static line jumps in Paw-Paw MI at Great Lakes Skydivers and the instructor, Dennis Johnson, was killed while flying his plane. From there I found another place to jump. I really didn't have time to bond with a teacher. There is this lady instructor down in Z-hills, who, in one refresher course taught me more about safety and landing patterns then I learned in all 12 previous jumps. I learn a lot on my own and I do analyze everything. It's what I do for a living and living is good. As far as canopy control there is still a lot for me to learn. However, I am comfortably safe with the skills that I picked up from static line training with Dennis.
The tunnel training (69 minutes so far) that I am giving to myself is teaching me a lot. I respect my tunnel coach and his way of teaching suits me. He is not jumpy, nor impatient and will answer any question regardless if I have asked the question before. I will do another hour in Feb and another hour in Mar. That will give me roughly 180 min of practice. Each time I do that I will jump down in Z-hills, find that lady instructor and pick her brain for an hour or so. And with what I learn on here and from what I read. I will be a much safer skydiver when the season opens in Apr.

It doesn't matter how anyone else lives their life.... it matter how you live yours!

[hexadecimal 0]

You really need to get yourself an instructor.



edit: I just looked at your profile and noticed you're from Chicago. Where are you jumping or planning to jump out here? Why not go to CSC or SDC and take the FJC and get some proper instruction (no offense intended, but you really do seem to need it)? This is not a sport you want to "wing it" in, and you definitely shouldn't rely on a message board for instruction.

[srsand1960 0]

No offence taken, good advice. I would never dive skydive Chicago. I don't know where CSC is. I don't know what FJC is. I'm currently in AFF. I'm going to go back to Skydive Midwest in April. There is an instructor there named Bear that was just starting to teach me things. I also plan on trying Hinkley this season :)

It doesn't matter how anyone else lives their life.... it matter how you live yours!

[flyangel2 2]

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flyangel2 is about the only person who's half my size and when she sticks her finger in my face - I listen

Bawhaha......the only thing I remember sticking in your face was a bottle of tequila!

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[hexadecimal 0]

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I would never dive skydive Chicago.

Just out of curiosity, why?

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I don't know where CSC is.

http://www.skydivecsc.com/

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I don't know what FJC is.

First jump course... the class where you would have learned what "toggles", and other basic elements of your rig are... along with many other things essential to your and other skydivers' safety.