audibles

[mwreed60 0]

I am just wondering if it is acceptable for a student to be going on progressions jumps with an audible.

Marcus

[Ron 10]

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I am just wondering if it is acceptable for a student to be going on progressions jumps with an audible.
Marcus

I would not let a student wear an audible....I think it sets a dangerous trend of using cool toys for saftey.

Once a person has a license thats their buisness.

But I htink the ability to use your eyes and internal sense of timing to judge altitude is hurt by using an audible very early on.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diablopilot 2]

Copy that.....

Ditto.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[skyyhi 0]

WARNING: I am very new to this sport so my advice should be checked with instructors. . .

I must agree with Ron here. I still rarely use an audible due to the fact that I want to be able to rely on my other senses before relying on a device that beeps in my ear. I wear a visual and I use my eyes. I have learned to be able to judge break-off altitude to within 500 feet using my eyes and my internal clock. This is a very useful skill should some instrument strapped to my body decide to fail. At my home dz, I know that if I am level with the mountain range, I am at 2500 ft. These are useful visual symbols that I can see with my eyes. While on student status I was not aware enough to use these visuals. I was spending more time thinking about the skydive and dive flow.

Just my $0.02. Also, I don't think instructors allow audibles on student status. Something else to think about.

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[freeasabird 0]

Check the SIMS. I think there is something in there that says students are required to use visual altimeters.

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[falxori 0]

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Check the SIMS. I think there is something in there that says students are required to use visual altimeters.

does it say "visual altimeters ONLY "
anyway, i'd get used to a visual first.
i know i look for my visual one first and i think its because i got started with only a visual one...

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Kris 0]

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Copy that.....

Ditto.

x2 here......I wouldn't let one of my student's jump an audible before they get their "A".

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[bodypilot1 0]

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I have learned to be able to judge break-off altitude to within 500 feet using my eyes and my internal clock.

Holly shit!
I dont even get that close.....

My opinion is:
If an Instructor ever does use an audible on his students, let hope he has it set for lower than the required pull altitude for his students.
It should NEVER be used in conjuction with the visual to determine when to pull.
ONLY maybe as a wake up call to the student that he/she has pasted through the intended pull altitude, if he is oblivious to the pull signal I am showing him, or before I get to his pilot chute.

-

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Nightingale 0]

I demoed one on one of my pre-A license solos, and it saved my ass. I was supposed to pull at 4, so I set the audible at 3.5, so I would pull on my own, and the audible would be a backup.

Well, I heard the audible when my visual was still reading 5000 feet. looked at the ground. looked back at the visual. had trouble figuring out which one was right, as I only had about 12 jumps at this time. figured to heck with it and pulled. had I decided to rely strictly on the visual, I'd have pulled AT 2500, which would have been bad. When I landed, the visual was still reading 1500 feet high, so I did choose correctly.

at only 12 jumps, I didn't really know what the ground was supposed to look like from different altitudes... just didn't have the experience, because during AFF, I spent so much time looking at the alti and my instructors, that I didn't spend much time looking down. Now, I'm usually reaching for my hackey a few seconds before the pro-track sounds, and I still won't jump without a visual, just in case. backups are good!

I don't think that audibles are a good idea on AFF jumps. too easy to get into the "I hear the beep, then I pull" mentality. Even just pre-A license is early, I think. I probably started using them a little early, but I always set them lower than I'm planning on pulling, so I don't rely on them.

[sundevil777 102]

How about setting it to go off at the hard deck only? How would this be anything but an improvement in safety?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Ron 10]

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How about setting it to go off at the hard deck only? How would this be anything but an improvement in safety?

It would work....But how many really do this?

For many years an audible was my only altimeter...Before that only my eyes.

The problem with giving it to them is they will want to use it....

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Well, I heard the audible when my visual was still reading 5000 feet. looked at the ground. looked back at the visual. had trouble figuring out which one was right, as I only had about 12 jumps at this time. figured to heck with it and pulled. had I decided to rely strictly on the visual, I'd have pulled AT 2500, which would have been bad. When I landed, the visual was still reading 1500 feet high, so I did choose correctly.

Was there an error on the altimeter? or did you not set it correctly?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Nightingale 0]

there was a problem with the altimeter. I'd zeroed it on the ground.

[dnewcomer 0]

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For many years an audible was my only altimeter...Before that only my eyes.

R--

I don't want to let your comment about jumping without any altimeter at all go unanswered. (I am assuming I understand correctly what you said.)

Here is another opinion for consideration...I don't mean to be telling anyone else what to do. We all have to make these decisions on our own. This is not a criticism directed at a person, but rather a criticism of a practice. I hope it is received in the spirit that it is offered.

IMHO it is extremely poor judgement for anyone to routinely jump without an altimeter other than one's own visual sense. It doesn't really matter how experienced you are or how many jumps you have made. I furthermore believe it is borderline good judgement to jump with only an audible altimeter, although I am aware many very experienced skydivers do this routinely. When people do this, they should realize they are increasing their risk for an accident. Electronic devices, including audible altimeters, are notoriously unreliable. Mechanical aneroid altimeters can fail, but they are more reliable than audibles.

Knowing when to pull is more than watching your altimeter or listening for a tone. When going up in the plane, notice what altitude the bottoms of nearby clouds are. If they're at 5,000' (which is common in the northeast), you're going to have to start thinking about pulling ~8 seconds after you pass below the surrounding clouds.

If you're skydiving in a 4-way and everyone else is tracking (you agreed to track at 4,000') but your altimeter still reads 5,500', something is wrong.

When you're jumping solo, watch for the people who exited before you.....if you're free falling past open canopies 500 yards downwind and your audible didn't go off, something is wrong.

Keep your eyes and ears open, and try to be ready for every contingency (not using any altimeter at all IMHO is not being prepared). If all the gadgets you are carrying with you to tell you how high you are have failed, err on the side of opening early unless that creates a significant danger for others.

Having said that, if I am doing a 4-way RW with people I know well and realize I have not got my altimeter on the ride to altitude, I will probably alert everyone else and jump anyway, depending on them to know when to track & pull.

If anyone ever has a skydiving accident and it is discovered that he/she was not carrying an altimeter of any type, I think we can all imagine what conclusions will be drawn.....irrespective of the actual cause of the accident.

Keep safe out there.

D--

[aber_aos 0]

Please note that I've only got low jump numbers, so I may not have enough experience to comment accurately here.

Personally I've done consolidation jumps with an audible and without. I don't see them as a problem for students if they are used sensibly. As has been mentioned many times on this forum, if the audible is set at or above your pull height then I think that they teach you to ignore your visual alti and lose altitude awareness. On the other hand, if you set the audible below your pull height then they become a backup warning that probably won't distract you from your visual alti.

When I was doing consols I always set my audible to 500-1000 ft below my intended pull height. I knew that if it ever went off in freefall (which it didn't) I'd really screwed up, but at least I'd learn my lesson, probably without hurting myself.

These days I always set my protrack to warn me a couple of hundred feet after I should have done something. If it goes off before I've started doing whatever I should be doing (break-off or pull) then I have a really good think after the jump and try to learn from my mistake.

My (low experience) view is that students should be allowed to use audibles, so long as they are set to a point several seconds beyond pull time. I don't think that setting them at pull height helps though.

I may be completely wrong. Most people on this forum know more than me.

[Ron 10]

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IMHO it is extremely poor judgement for anyone to routinely jump without an altimeter other than one's own visual sense

And I don't think its that big of a deal to be honest. The difference is that I have done it, and you have not. I had no problem not having an altimeter.

I was more aware of the spot since I actually looked down. Many times I was the guy that broke off first. I was MORE aware of my altitiude than some guy that has an altimeter on his wrist and only looks at it a couple of times, or some guy with an audible that is waiting for it to go off.

1. I know how the ground looks at 2,3,4 thousand feet. I'll be honest and tell you that as we get higer it gets harder to tell. And that at new DZ's it gets harder as well. In these cases I errored on the high side everytime. .

2. Most people do have altimeters...And I can see them.

3. I have an internal clock...When I have been skydiving to long...I get a very wierd feeling.

4. Most times someone will track off...Guess what? Its time to track off as well.

How far do I track? Till I have clear airspace. Are you going to pull when you reach two grand even if its not clear? Why not pull at 2500 if it is clear? Instead of looking at an altimeter, I am looking at traffic.

How long does it take you to decide if you have a mal? For me there is only one question...Can I land this? If not its gone. It does not matter if I am at three grand or one grand...If I can't survive the landing, I can't survive the landing and I'm not going to land it. I have 6 malfunctions...Not ONCE did I ever look at my altimeter, I looked at my handles and the ground. Time spent looking at my altimeter could be better spent looking for handles....If Im low, what am I gonna do?

"Oh crap, I'm at a thousand feet!!! I guess I'm gonna have to ride this main in and die instead of cutting away!"

I don't use my altimeter to land my canopy...I don't use my altimeter in a Cessna to land, I look at the runway.

For what its worth, I have an altimeter on one of my rigs...I wear it for you, not me. And I only look at it if I get a wierd feeling that freefall has been going on to long. Then I don't trust it. I look at the ground.

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When people do this, they should realize they are increasing their risk for an accident. Electronic devices, including audible altimeters, are notoriously unreliable. Mechanical aneroid altimeters can fail, but they are more reliable than audibles.

I think you increase your risk for an accident by needing to have all these toys.

Case study time. From THIS thread.

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1108909#1108909
Well, I heard the audible when my visual was still reading 5000 feet. looked at the ground. looked back at the visual. had trouble figuring out which one was right, as I only had about 12 jumps at this time. figured to heck with it and pulled. had I decided to rely strictly on the visual, I'd have pulled AT 2500, which would have been bad. When I landed, the visual was still reading 1500 feet high, so I did choose correctly.

at only 12 jumps, I didn't really know what the ground was supposed to look like from different altitudes... just didn't have the experience, because during AFF, I spent so much time looking at the alti and my instructors, that I didn't spend much time looking down. Now, I'm usually reaching for my hackey a few seconds before the pro-track sounds, and I still won't jump without a visual, just in case. backups are good!

So she could not tell if the altimeter was working or not...So she made the right call to pull. But if she had used the altimeter she would have pulled lower than she wanted.

This is one of the reasons I like the SL program over AFF....I have my students look at the ground at 3 grand and make them learn that altitiude, plus they spend more time at that altitude in a SL program than in AFF. They learn what 3 grand looks like.


So she could not judge the ground visually, and she was never taught to do that...

Which is better? Trusting a device that we skydivers don't treat very well (Throwing tham around, never being calibrated, things that have been known to break) or learning how to tell what 3 grand or 2 grand
looks like in freefall?

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Knowing when to pull is more than watching your altimeter or listening for a tone

Yep, its noticing the clouds like you said, and developing a sense of timing and also learning how to judge what 2 grand looks like by eyeballing it.

There have been stories of people looking at an altimeter till the cypres fires....There was a pretty famous Tandem video where they tandem master blames the Cypres save on his altimeter being broken. He says he looked at his altimeter and it read 6 grand. Then he looked at it again and it still read 6 grand....What an idiot!

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If you're skydiving in a 4-way and everyone else is tracking (you agreed to track at 4,000') but your altimeter still reads 5,500', something is wrong.

So why trust it? If people are tracking off..... LEAVE, the skydive is done...Get clear airspace and deploy and then handle any malfuctions.

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When you're jumping solo, watch for the people who exited before you.....if you're free falling past open canopies 500 yards downwind and your audible didn't go off, something is wrong.

Agreed, when doing a solo or working with students I always wear a wrist mount altimeter in addition to the one on my rig. Why? Well on a solo I have no secondary clues or others altis to look at, and when working with students they have to do things at higher altitudes and I can't really tell 6 grand from 7 grand just by looking down.

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Keep your eyes and ears open, and try to be ready for every contingency (not using any altimeter at all IMHO is not being prepared). If all the gadgets you are carrying with you to tell you how high you are have failed, err on the side of opening early unless that creates a significant danger for others.

Who do you think is better trained to deal with a broken alti? Me who does not even need one (But has one) or you that has always needed it?

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Having said that, if I am doing a 4-way RW with people I know well and realize I have not got my altimeter on the ride to altitude, I will probably alert everyone else and jump anyway, depending on them to know when to track & pull.

See, you are depending on an altimeter, or depending on your buddies...How about training yourself to handle it WITHOUT either, then ADD both to make it even safer?

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If anyone ever has a skydiving accident and it is discovered that he/she was not carrying an altimeter of any type, I think we can all imagine what conclusions will be drawn.....irrespective of the actual cause of the accident.

How about all the accidents where people had perfect working altimeters and still died? Didn't help them now did it?

Its a tool. But you don't need them. And always having them can build a dependence on them. So then to make up for that dependance you go out and by an audible as a back up. So you replaced one dependance on a device for another.

Me, I have (in order):

1. Abiltity to "eyeball" my pull altitudes.

2. A sense of freefall timing. (Both of these take time to develop...But if you never try to develop them, they will never really develop).

3. isual clues such as cloud heights.

4. My buddies who will track off if I can't eyeball, or feel the break off time.

5. Others in the formations altimeters that I look at while I turn points (and why my altimeter is mounted on my leg strap...for them to look at).

6. MY altimeter.

7. My audible.

I put my focus so that altimeters are only backups...You put yours so that your seconday clues are back ups....

Whos sense of timing and eyeballing it do you think is better?

So while I depend on my alti's to be back ups...And they are pretty reliable, you depend on eyeballing it and timing as back ups...Things that are not reliable, and that you have never trained.

Who is safer?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[dnewcomer 0]

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And I don't think its that big of a deal to be honest.........etc. etc...........reliable, and that you have never trained. Who is safer?

R--

I believe I am safer (but I wouldn't get into a pissing contest about it).

I've jumped w/o an altimeter due to unforeseen circumstances (as most skydivers have), but I wouldn't do it or recommend it on a regular basis.

I use every sensory clue I can get (as you do) to determine when it's pull time, including altimeters. I wouldn't want personal hubris or ego to get in the way of good judgement.

I hear you. I understand what you are saying. You are an exceptional person if you feel you could jump routinely without using an altimeter and be as safe as when you jump with one. IMO this would be inadvisable for most skydivers.

Blue ones.

D--

[captain1 0]

I don't think so. It can start a bad habit early on. I use audibles but only when I started freeflying much later on. However, I have a helmet that mounts 2 audibles. If you are going to rely on the alarm, it is wise to have two in case one doesn't work. Regardless, I still find myself looking at clouds, ground and visual altimeter before audibles sound off. Just a good habit that was developed early on because my instructor stressed the importance of developing good altltude awareness.

[Nightingale 0]

my instructors told me when I did my solos, to spend time looking down, to take note of the ground and how it looked at various altitudes. I did, but I don't know that 12 jumps is enough for anyone to recognize what the ground looks like at 4,000 feet, static line or aff.

[kelpdiver 2]

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My (low experience) view is that students should be allowed to use audibles, so long as they are set to a point several seconds beyond pull time. I don't think that setting them at pull height helps though.

But if you never plan for the student to use it, what is it doing that your Cypress doesn't? At that point it is just extra gear that has to be monitored, that can fail, that can be overrelied on. To me that seems like a violation of the KISS principle.

One of my instructors asked me what to do if I see him pull...if I let myself get down to the point where it might make sense for the audible to go off, I fear they might decide to give me the bowling speech.

[freakflyer9999 1]

[reply
IMHO it is extremely poor judgement for anyone to routinely jump without an altimeter other than one's own visual sense.

[sundevil777 102]

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In Reply To
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How about setting it to go off at the hard deck only? How would this be anything but an improvement in safety?

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It would work....But how many really do this?

For many years an audible was my only altimeter...Before that only my eyes.

The problem with giving it to them is they will want to use it....

If the use of audibles by students is of concern, then the use/setting of the audible should be under the complete control of the jumpmaster, so this should not be an issue.

Although, I started unplugging my Sentinel and unhooking the steven's line to the gut reserve long before I was off student status It was easy to do this on the way to altitude.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am