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Quote[reply
does icarus make larger VX's? or do they stop at 119?
Cheers
Dave
I beleive that Icarus will make a canopy ANY size you want, just because it isn't listed on their site does not mean they won't makei it for you. Also I think the pricing is the same either way.
My last conversation with Chris Martin was about a larger crossbrace canopy. I told him that a x-brace will most likely never be in my future since I don't care to go that small or to swoop that far (plus BM is the direction I want to go). He grinned and told me that may change in the future...esp since they had built a Xoas up to a 150 (and wouldn't do so again)....and that they had tested a x-brace tandem as well (low 200 sqft). He went on for nearly 30 minutes about how much he thought could be done with x-brace with proper testing.
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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
QuoteIn a lot of ways I hope they don't. We have enough issues with people jumping ultra high performance canopies before they're ready as it is.
If someone is that focused on getting on to something too small too quick...not releasing the KA in those sizes is the wrong way to keep that person safe/alive/educated.
We've seen people die from low turns on a ST 190 and a Manta in the last few years also.
I've said it before - unless the culture changes, we will continue to see an increase in good-canopy fatalities.
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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
billvon 3,049
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>If someone is that focused on getting on to something too small too
> quick...not releasing the KA in those sizes is the wrong way to keep
> that person safe/alive/educated.
I agree. But it does (sometimes) keep him alive. I'd rather more people be kept alive in the wrong way than killed in the right way - at least until we can do a better job at teaching people how to safely downsize.
>We've seen people die from low turns on a ST 190 and a Manta in
>the last few years also.
Of course. You can kill yourself under anything. But you are still more likely to kill yourself under a Katana 120 than a Pilot 117 - especially if you can't fly it. And you are way more likely to kill yourself under a Stiletto 135 than a Manta.
> quick...not releasing the KA in those sizes is the wrong way to keep
> that person safe/alive/educated.
I agree. But it does (sometimes) keep him alive. I'd rather more people be kept alive in the wrong way than killed in the right way - at least until we can do a better job at teaching people how to safely downsize.
>We've seen people die from low turns on a ST 190 and a Manta in
>the last few years also.
Of course. You can kill yourself under anything. But you are still more likely to kill yourself under a Katana 120 than a Pilot 117 - especially if you can't fly it. And you are way more likely to kill yourself under a Stiletto 135 than a Manta.
What gets me is you're not bent out of shape about all the other same class canopies available in larger sizes. Crossfire2 stock size up to 189, Vengence up to 170, Samarui 170 as well as others.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
QuoteWhat gets me is you're not bent out of shape about all the other same class canopies available in larger sizes. Crossfire2 stock size up to 189, Vengence up to 170, Samarui 170 as well as others.
Don't forget the Stiletto 190 and Safire up to 260.
I haven't kept my ear to the ground to know what is going on at PD these days. The lack of a KA 150 doesn't effect me that much as their are other options (and nearly the same performance). The KA 135/150 could be a lot of fun and safe in the right hands. It could also be a conservative path for more performance for someone like AggieDave. Should this force PD to put one out? I think not. Should the fact that someone might screw themselves in be a reason to hold it back. I think not - if that was true we would have no HP canopies.
However, I will say that the ST190 was a good trasition canopy for me. It allowed me to stay at my same wingloading while learning how to fly a eliptical. There is a market for jumpers the fall outside the typical 145lb male.
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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
billvon 3,049
>What gets me is you're not bent out of shape about all the other
> same class canopies available in larger sizes. Crossfire2 stock size
> up to 189, Vengence up to 170, Samarui 170 as well as others.
It does bug me a bit that new jumpers are going from Pilot 190s to Vengeance 170's - but as they're already out there there's no sense wishing things were different.
>Don't forget the Stiletto 190 and Safire up to 260.
That's a good point on the Stiletto 190. They are downright dangerous loaded lightly. I once jumped a Stiletto 190, and at my weight (loading a bit less than 1:1) it was more unstable than my old Nova. That might be a case where a jumper goes from a Pilot 210 to a Stiletto 190 "to not downsize too fast" and ends up with a much more dangerous canopy.
> same class canopies available in larger sizes. Crossfire2 stock size
> up to 189, Vengence up to 170, Samarui 170 as well as others.
It does bug me a bit that new jumpers are going from Pilot 190s to Vengeance 170's - but as they're already out there there's no sense wishing things were different.
>Don't forget the Stiletto 190 and Safire up to 260.
That's a good point on the Stiletto 190. They are downright dangerous loaded lightly. I once jumped a Stiletto 190, and at my weight (loading a bit less than 1:1) it was more unstable than my old Nova. That might be a case where a jumper goes from a Pilot 210 to a Stiletto 190 "to not downsize too fast" and ends up with a much more dangerous canopy.
AndyMan 7
When it comes to what kind of canopy I want to fly, it really doesn't matter to me what somebody else should, or should not jump. I'm all about me. I'm a consumer, and being selfish is what a consumer is supposed to do. If "safety of others" is the standard we're going to use, then let's face it, all of the cross-braced canopies on the market should be withdrawn, immediately, never mind every canopy produced smaller than 150.
I'm a bit surprised that you're taking this attitude only with bigger canopies. There's plenty of smaller people jumping canopies ahead of their abilities, but I don't hear you objecting to that. I know one small girl with a few hundred jumps, she barely weighs a hundred pounds and she was demo jumping a 97 Katana, that somebody at PD sent her! So much for PD checking for appropriate canopy choices...
If you were campaining for the banning of crossbraced canopies, or canopies smaller than 150, I might not agree, but at least I'd understand it. But to limit yourself to only bigger HP canopies? You know better then that, Bill.
As a bigger guy, it really sucks that the market leader simply won't make a canopy to sell me - not because it's unsafe, just their bean-counters say it's not worth it. It sucks even more that they won't admit to it, it's incredibly disrespectful of PD to string people along for years with a line of "just wait, it's coming!" It's clear to me that it isn't coming. I'm disapointed, but moreso - I'm angry with the years of lies.
That said, Dave and I are both big guys. I load my current set of canopies at about 1.9. There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to play with a Katana, or Velocity for that matter. Every manufacturer except PD serves that market, it's a pitty they don't. Lucky for me, there's plenty of manufacturers who are more than happy to take my money.
_Am
I'm a bit surprised that you're taking this attitude only with bigger canopies. There's plenty of smaller people jumping canopies ahead of their abilities, but I don't hear you objecting to that. I know one small girl with a few hundred jumps, she barely weighs a hundred pounds and she was demo jumping a 97 Katana, that somebody at PD sent her! So much for PD checking for appropriate canopy choices...
If you were campaining for the banning of crossbraced canopies, or canopies smaller than 150, I might not agree, but at least I'd understand it. But to limit yourself to only bigger HP canopies? You know better then that, Bill.
As a bigger guy, it really sucks that the market leader simply won't make a canopy to sell me - not because it's unsafe, just their bean-counters say it's not worth it. It sucks even more that they won't admit to it, it's incredibly disrespectful of PD to string people along for years with a line of "just wait, it's coming!" It's clear to me that it isn't coming. I'm disapointed, but moreso - I'm angry with the years of lies.
That said, Dave and I are both big guys. I load my current set of canopies at about 1.9. There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to play with a Katana, or Velocity for that matter. Every manufacturer except PD serves that market, it's a pitty they don't. Lucky for me, there's plenty of manufacturers who are more than happy to take my money.
_Am
__
You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.
You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.
QuoteThere are other alternatives for those that really NEED that level of performance at those sizes..... most who want the 135 or 150 are just "Label Hunters"......
I admit there are many alternative canopies available from other manufacturers and they are all great products. I have no specific loyalty to any one canopy manufacturer and simply wanted to give a Katana 135 a try after seeing what a great performance range a fellow jumper at my DZ gets from his Katana 107 wing loaded the same as I am on my Vengeance 135. As things stand when my Vengeance needs replacing I’ll probably go with a Samurai 136. PD advertised the 135 and 150 as if they were to be released with all the other sizes yet here we are a year and some months later without any indication if they are ever going to be released. My experience has been that PD’s customer service is the best in the industry, but as one of the few larger jumpers who has the proper experience level to handle the canopy at these sizes I’d like a straight answer as to whether the Katana 135/150 will ever reach production. If the canopies are still going to be produced then it would sure be nice to know what the hang up is all about.
billvon 3,049
> I'm all about me. I'm a consumer, and being selfish is what a
> consumer is supposed to do.
Personally I agree. I want anyone to sell me any canopy I want. But I also see it from the perspective of a (former) S+TA and instructor - and from that perspective I'm glad some newbies can't get Katana 150's. Yes, it's sad that excellent 300 lb swoopers with thousands of jumps can't get a Katana 150. But I would rather see a disappointed larger jumper than a dead newer jumper.
The real answer is education. Until then, all this talk of keeping newer jumpers off small canopies is a stopgap measure at best, to keep them alive until we _can_ teach them to safely fly ultra high performance canopies.
> consumer is supposed to do.
Personally I agree. I want anyone to sell me any canopy I want. But I also see it from the perspective of a (former) S+TA and instructor - and from that perspective I'm glad some newbies can't get Katana 150's. Yes, it's sad that excellent 300 lb swoopers with thousands of jumps can't get a Katana 150. But I would rather see a disappointed larger jumper than a dead newer jumper.
The real answer is education. Until then, all this talk of keeping newer jumpers off small canopies is a stopgap measure at best, to keep them alive until we _can_ teach them to safely fly ultra high performance canopies.
isaiah85 0
Hey Guys,
We are not holding out the KA 135/150 because we don't want inexperienced jumpers to get their hands on it (we don't, but that's not why it's not out) We would love to have the canopy ready, but right now it doesn't meet our standards. We are very, very close; a few times we though we had it, further testing showed flaws in it. We are not going to release the canopy until we are fully satisfied with it.
Later,
Isaiah
We are not holding out the KA 135/150 because we don't want inexperienced jumpers to get their hands on it (we don't, but that's not why it's not out) We would love to have the canopy ready, but right now it doesn't meet our standards. We are very, very close; a few times we though we had it, further testing showed flaws in it. We are not going to release the canopy until we are fully satisfied with it.
Later,
Isaiah
You should send one to me so I can see if I'm satisfied with it.After all the customer is always right.
.
.
QuoteAs a bigger guy, it really sucks that the market leader simply won't make a canopy to sell me - not because it's unsafe, just their bean-counters say it's not worth it. It sucks even more that they won't admit to it, it's incredibly disrespectful of PD to string people along for years with a line of "just wait, it's coming!" It's clear to me that it isn't coming. I'm disapointed, but moreso - I'm angry with the years of lies.
Contrary to popular belief, you cannot merely scale up a KA97 by ~35% to get a KA-135. There is no reason to expect the larger canopy to have the same flight characteristics as the 97. The Reynolds numbers are different, thus the flight characteristics can be expected to be different as well. That is why PD doesn't merely scale identical designs to the proper size. They want to sell a Katana 135 or 150 that flies the same as smaller Katanas at the same wing loadings.
PD is catching a lot of slack for simply having excellent R&D and quality control.
isaiah85 0
If you didn't blow out of Rantoul so fast I would have had one for you...QuoteYou should send one to me so I can see if I'm satisfied with it.After all the customer is always right.
.
Isaiah
QuoteIf you didn't blow out of Rantoul so fast I would have had one for you...QuoteYou should send one to me so I can see if I'm satisfied with it.After all the customer is always right.
.
Isaiah
Gotta do what pays the bills,and Rantoul does not pay the bills.Any chance at Z-hills for New Years?
.
Quote
Gotta do what pays the bills,and Rantoul does not pay the bills.Any chance at Z-hills for New Years?
.
Man Zhills is going to be seriously packed this year...
:-P
Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com
CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.
CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.
QuoteQuote
Gotta do what pays the bills,and Rantoul does not pay the bills.Any chance at Z-hills for New Years?
.
Man Zhills is going to be seriously packed this year...
:-P
Dave
Thats what I have been telling them.
.
QuoteQuoteHell the KA out glides the Pilot (not a same category canopy I know) by a LONG way.
err....you may want to go out and test that theory again..... I think you're wrong about that.
BZZZZT...negative Ghostrider. I easily outflew the Pilot on the KA of the same size at the same loading
Bill has always been incorrect, IMO, about steep trim. I do, however, realize that trying to debate anything on dz.com is almost always a waste of time. I'll rather kick back and drink a beer with you next time I see you
Blues,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team
i was wondering about this too, right now all i know of in the highly elliptical market in this size is the mamba, and i would like some choices for what i go to next.
The only bad skydive is your last!
chris "sonic wookie" harwell
Piedra-belluda-roja Rodriguez
The only bad skydive is your last!
chris "sonic wookie" harwell
Piedra-belluda-roja Rodriguez
bob.dino 1
There's also the Samurai, the Crossfire2, Blade, etc etc.
Cloudi 0
Pssst. Pssst! Hey buddy, over here...
They're perfecting them.
Waiting sucks, but getting it right ROCKS!!
Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.
They're perfecting them.
Waiting sucks, but getting it right ROCKS!!
Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.
Psst! Isn't PD the largest sport parachute manufacture in the world? If it was really important to them you’d think they’d have perfected them by now. They’ve probably spent as much time perfecting entire new models of canopies as they have tweaking the 135 and 150. I’ve worked with parachute models in research so I know things don’t scale like everyone wishes they would but I really have to wonder how much effort is being put forth on this project. I'm sure when they get around to finishing things off they'll be amazing canopies. I fear the extra development it has taken to perfect the larger sizes will cause them to shy away from the larger sizes in future models. Kind of like there will probably be no second in the series of airlock canopies from PD since the first was such a headache.
QuoteKind of like there will probably be no second in the series of airlock canopies from PD since the first was such a headache.
My educated guess is there will be no second in the series of airlocks from PD because will be because they didn't sell many. Not that they ever called it a series, and not that they stopped making the Vengeance.
Psst! You do realize Cloudi works for PD, right?
QuoteNot that they ever called it a series,
Check out the attached photo and yes I do realize Cloudi works for PD. Oh, and I'm one of those weirdos who actually owns and likes his Vengeance.
Edit to add: And I'm even more odd in wishing they would make a second in the series.
I'm thinking 97% + ...
Blog Clicky
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