incredibly upset, incredibly scammed; really need advice

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Congrats, that will give you more time to jump......... but no money to jump with........lifes not fair

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[GQ_jumper 4]

Incidentally, my criminal justice instructor is a former FBI agent. Would anyone object to me showing him (or other authorized people) this message board, in hopes they can help out?

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Just a side note, I don't know the exact rules but I believe anyone in a teacher's position is not allowed to give anything that may be considered legal advice. Obviously your instructor will be more familiar than myself with the rules though.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[marks 0]

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This is mmytacism's best friend Ed again. Thanks again to everyone for helping us out in this very difficult situation. Incidentally, my criminal justice instructor is a former FBI agent. Would anyone object to me showing him (or other authorized people) this message board, in hopes they can help out? Jessica is going to contact her local district attorney this coming Monday, and we're also going to see if local news stations can get involved. Thank you all so much!
-Ed

do all the obove, but dont go to the news. please.

just puts a bad light on skydivers, we already have to deal with it, but would like not to have more if possible.

[PhillyJumper 0]

Hey, I wanted to let you know that I have made 1 tandem and 2 AFF student jumps at Skydive Philadelphia. I am having a great time. The instructors seem very knowledgeable and professional. Now I have not been able to jump in 5 weeks due to the weather(wind) and my schedule. Hopefully I will make my AFF 3 jump soon. Let me know when you are going to jump and maybe we can meet up.
I know they charge a $75 cancellation fee if you cancel within 7 days. I had to pay this once but, they let the $75 count towards my next jump. They are really nice guys if you talk to them I am sure you will get it taken care of. I have stayed after twice now and went out to eat with them. Lots of great guys and a few hot chicks.
I do not know about any other jump zones. From the first day I was there they treated me like I was one of their group. I might try another place after I graduate. For now I feel comfortable there. I just wanted to let you know that Skydive Philadelphia does exist and is a great place to train.

Jim

[Orange1 0]

Hmm. phillyjumper appears to have registered simply to post that

More to the point, is this normal for US DZs? :

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I know they charge a $75 cancellation fee if you cancel within 7 days. I had to pay this once but, they let the $75 count towards my next jump.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[marks 0]

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Hmm. phillyjumper appears to have registered simply to post that

More to the point, is this normal for US DZs? :

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I know they charge a $75 cancellation fee if you cancel within 7 days. I had to pay this once but, they let the $75 count towards my next jump.

so what?

im sure penridge is a cool drop zone with some cool peeps and instructors.... i probably would like it there also..

but, i would not go there because of who owns it.

so i would hope to see those jumpers go out, to other dz's and maybe go boogie hoppin next season so i could get a chance to meet them.

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[EricTheRed 0]

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I contacted Mike, and he gave me some extraordinarily helpful advice.

Unfortunately, I discovered today, it only applies to purchases made with a credit card.

I don't have a real credit card, so I reserved my jump with a debit card (which I can use as credit, but the money is physically withdrawn from my account the second I make a purchase).

The bank is going to do an investigation, so it may take a while to get my money back (or I could demand to do my jump, but I'm honestly really turned off by the outright lies I was given on the phone).

In any case, my friend and I are still going for our first jumps at Cross Keys tomorrow afternoon. Yes, I'll be eating Ramen for a month, but I know this will be worth it.

Thanks, everyone.

Debit cards are evil.

illegible usually

[gemini 0]

NJ and NY have very active Attorney Generals who eagerly prosecute corporate fraud. I would definitely call them. Probably won't help you get your money back, but it will create a lot of problems for the business and cost them way more than what you paid.

Blue skies,

Jim

[mmytacism 0]

Thanks again, everyone, for the advice. I'm actively pursuing this.

Glad I jumped at Cross Keys! :)

[mdrejhon 8]

Congratulations for your first skydive.

In theory, a honest skydive travel reservation agency (exact charges with a documented 'travel agent fee') would do a lot of good to skydiving.

Unfortunately, Skyride isn't the name we want exactly because of what they have done to you and others.

I will tell you that I have succeeded in disputing illegal charges that were poorly documented. Although not skydiving related, this is related to your dilemma and frustration.

The fraudulent company won't be able to provide documentation that you really did not jump at all (unless the documentation was forged). Small Claims court may be required. I realize that you did not use a credit card, but this is still equivalent to a theft and the bank is legally entitled minus a small fee (usually $50). In many cases, you can indeed SUE the bank if they say no. People have succeeded, it's just harder with a debit card - but they are abuseable like a credit card and the courts will often side with you on this, if you do your homework correctly. A lawyer may not even be needed - this is only $595 and most small claims are done without a lawyer but you may need to go to the library to research. If you have lawyer friends; definitely pick their brains!

If you get lucky, you don't need to involve the courts, but don't be afraid to use them if you must (even without a lawyer since $595 is too small to warrant one unless you get one that is willing to do it for cheap, like $150 fixed quote or less).

There are big forums (the lawyer equivalent of dropzone.com) on the Internet and books at the library that can help you get the $595 back without needing to pay a dime to a lawyer.

Documentation is King - even a printout of recollected memories of telephone conversations are better than nothing (If you don't have much on paper beyond bank statements); They would still need to defend against this sort of stuff and many companies would rather refund $595 than pay lawyer $1000 to prove that your paper is forged hearsay or some silly stuff. It's totally possible to win $595 just by walking into small claims court for free, representing yourself. Just do your homework.

(I know a lawyer is highly recommended for bigger settlements -- but a small-claims $595 ain't one of them, your bank statement is already gold evidence.)

I feel for you and I hate when things like these happen. You CAN do it - just put your mind to it, be persistent, don't take "NO" for an answer. Not the bank. Not Skyride. Keep doing it.

Based on my actual personal experience, assuming your laws are similiar, you have almost a 100% guarantee of getting the money back if you do the right things and push the right buttons. At least the bank swallowing it, if Skyride doesn't pay you back.

[kelpdiver 2]

Mark,

the catch with small claims is that winning is (less than) half the battle. Still have to collect. Better to get the bank to reverse than to have to sue the DZ.

[mdrejhon 8]

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Mark,

the catch with small claims is that winning is (less than) half the battle. Still have to collect. Better to get the bank to reverse than to have to sue the DZ.

True, try to get the charges reversed first.

But if that fails, don't give up. There are cases where bank might try to refuse. In this case, do the bank first - sue them first in small claims for not reimbursing a theft. It is easier to collect from the bank. If a bank illegally refuse to reimburse (minus a deductible) since most theft are covered, as per the bank agreement. There are sometimes banks that are a hassle, but they rarely renege on a court judgement - be persistent. Credit-card style debit cards are a very sore point these days - very easily abused. This will force the bank to go after Skydride for you (they are still liable to chargebacks - even if the card number is a debit card). The bank may just have to be 'convinced' by court if you must, get past the bank brick wall. Skyride's credit card number processor will start to complain about fraud if chargebacks become too excessive. That may eventually put Skyride's on credit card processor blacklists. And, even if skyride refuses to work with the bank, that tarnishes Skyride's reputation even further in the processing backend. If Skyride refuses to co-operate or go bankrupt, then most likely, a middleman will swallow the loss somewhere -- usually a insurerer or reinsurer for institutional credit card losses. This is a legitimate complaint, especially under the premises of theft.

For the original poster. If lucky, you are with a good bank that is willing to work with you -- you'll get your money back with no problem even if a little more slowly than a credit card. Unfortunately, not all banks are that friendly...

Note: I had to threaten a bank once after too much phone tag, hold times, fax feeding, time-buying, and endless different answers from different people. Eventually got my money back. It was an amount of several hundred dollars. (Not skyride related). Do not give up.

[FrflyPimpDaddy 0]

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so many of these stories now.. i live uk and i dnt reli know anything about the court case's, but i think the head of the american skydiving acsocaion (whatever its called) should reli do sumthing about this.. afta all its just giving a bad reputation to skydiving.

over hear we have the "office of trading standards" if any company is screwing people over in anyway they investigate and close em down.. is there not sumthin like that ? or has this already bin dun?

Can you speak or write in English? Christ, you people spawned the language one would think you could use it!

I will retract this statement if it can be proven you were piss drunk when you posted this.

[BirdBoi 0]

Short hand english and abbreviated english slang, saves time and effort !!

Sorry if you dont get the lingo but you understood it thats all that matters here, not how its spelt!

No not pissed.. maybe stoned. that might explain it!

[purplegirl 0]

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Short hand english and abbreviated english slang, saves time and effort !!

Sorry if you dont get the lingo but you understood it thats all that matters here, not how its spelt!

No not pissed.. maybe stoned. that might explain it!

exactly! especially if you are so used to sending text messages.

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[BirdBoi 0]

he must be old!! hehe!

[ScottyInAus 0]

Did you konw msot wrods are reocgonzible as lnog as all the letetrs are pesernt and the frsit and lsat letetrs are as tehy souhld be.

Cheers,
Jason.

[PhillyJumper 0]

After seeing these posts, I decided to do some research. I went to that legitimate skydiving place’s web site Cross Keys. After a few searches I found 3 different web sites that help me find their location.
Philadelphiaskydiving.com
Freefalladventures.com
Skydivecrosskeys.com
Here are some common statements I copied from their sites about Tandem Skydives.

“Price does not include $30.00 Gear Rental Fee.”

“Add $30.00 for Gear Rental”
“Online purchases are refundable for a period of 30 days from the date of purchase for a fee of $30.00.”
“Gift certificates purchased online are refundable for 30 days for a fee of $30.00. After 30 days they are not refundable but are transferable.”

I decided to call Cross Keys and see if this is normal practice to charge a “gear rental fee” for Tandems and to see if many people buy their $30 refund agreement just in case they may want their money back. They said “everyone buys the gear rental for Tandems and most people do not buy the $30 refund agreement”. I guess this makes sense, for first time skydivers would not own their own equipment.
I was thinking of trying this place out after I graduate. I have heard their instructors and coaches are really good. Is this a scam or is this standard practice for most skydiving? Or are there different standards for different skydiving places?

Jim

[Ncrowe 0]

Gear rental fees are bullshit as well, what purpose could it possibly serve except for hiding costs...tandems deserve a set price and be expected to pay that price when they arrive at the DZ.....with maybe a nice tip for the instructor if they had a good time.

"Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! "

[PhreeZone 20]

Crosskeys is a real DZ. One of the most popular on the east coast. I will refrain from other comments on the gear rental practice and theories on why its there to avoid putting more fuel in the lawsuit fire.

Freefall Adventures is the School side and Skydive CrossKeys is the experienced jumper side, thats why there are 2 different websites.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[davelepka 4]

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I was thinking of trying this place out after I graduate

You absolutely should. Talk to your instructors, and I'm sure they will agree that Crosskeys is a great DZ.

The issue here is with Skyride. Most DZ's are good places, with good people working there who will bend over backwards to make you happy. Even DZ's that work with Skyride, or were 'born' to serve Skyride will usually be fine, upstanding places to do business with directly. It's when you work through a 'middle man' you come into trouble.

[JumpHog 0]

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After seeing these posts, I decided to do some research. I went to that legitimate skydiving place’s web site Cross Keys. After a few searches I found 3 different web sites that help me find their location.
Philadelphiaskydiving.com
Freefalladventures.com
Skydivecrosskeys.com
Here are some common statements I copied from their sites about Tandem Skydives.

“Price does not include $30.00 Gear Rental Fee.”

“Add $30.00 for Gear Rental”
“Online purchases are refundable for a period of 30 days from the date of purchase for a fee of $30.00.”
“Gift certificates purchased online are refundable for 30 days for a fee of $30.00. After 30 days they are not refundable but are transferable.”

I decided to call Cross Keys and see if this is normal practice to charge a “gear rental fee” for Tandems and to see if many people buy their $30 refund agreement just in case they may want their money back. They said “everyone buys the gear rental for Tandems and most people do not buy the $30 refund agreement”. I guess this makes sense, for first time skydivers would not own their own equipment.
I was thinking of trying this place out after I graduate. I have heard their instructors and coaches are really good. Is this a scam or is this standard practice for most skydiving? Or are there different standards for different skydiving places?

Jim

Yes, they have three different websites. Freefall Adventures is the name of the student program at Skydive Cross Keys and www.freefalladventures.com has been their website since they first went online. They made www.skydivecrosskeys.com a separate website that is pretty much just focused on fun jumpers, (it has events, photo galleries, bulletin boards, etc.) while www.freefalladventures.com focuses more on student information. My guess is that they built www.philadelphiaskydiving.com so that they would have a website that is more search-engine friendly.

While I don't agree with the practice, they reluctantly added the "$30 gear rental fee" because Skyride had been doing just that. The only difference is that Skyride didn't tell you about this fee until after you had given them your credit card number and paid. So, wheras originally Freefall Adventure's website showed a price of $185, Skyride's websites would show a price of $165 (without mentioning the additional fees). Students would book through Skyride, thinking they were cheaper, even though they ended up being more expensive when you added on the "hidden fees". Looking at Skyride's, www.skydivephiladelphia.com website, which Jessica said that she used, they quote their tandem jumps as being $165 and video as $85. If you want to nitpick about fees, how is it that they were charged $672 for two jumps that they never made. That comes to $336 per jump with video, which is $86 more expensive, per jump, than their quoted price (and they didn't even get to jump!!!). I'm sure the additional $86 was just Skyride's "9/11 fee", and "terrorist fee".

On the $30 refund fee, this isn't an insurance that you have to pay for upfront, like you make it out to be. If, after you book a skydive online, you decide to change your mind within 30 days, you will be charged a $30 fee and get a complete refund. I believe this is a fair amount to charge for a refund, and is pretty much standard in the skydiving industry.

If you really wanted to nitpick a website, feel free to look at any of Skyride's websites. They offer claims that they can't back up, like "most experienced staff in the northeast", and prices that are far cheaper than what they will end up charging you (with no mention of the extra fees). I do know that Freefall adventures has several instructors with well over 10,000 jumps and tens of thousands of tandems between them. Most of the rest of the staff has over 5,000 jumps a piece. On top of that, almost all of the pictures on Skyride's websites are stolen, copyrighted photos. For example, look at www.phillyskydiving.com and you will find pictures of Cross Keys' staff members, taken by Cross Keys' staff, at Skydive Cross Keys.

Well, that's my rant on the whole thing. I hope that Jessica and Ed are able to get their money back and prosecute Skydive Pennridge for illegally charging their credit cards, without their permission. Jim, their are a lot of great dz's in the area, and I suggest you try them all and make a decision based on that. The staff and fun-jumpers at Cross Keys are some of the friendliest people I have met. From the first day I jumped there, I have always felt like I was home. Some other great DZ's in the area that you should check out are The Ranch, in Gardiner, NY, Skydive Sussex, in Sussex, NJ, and Skydive Delmarva. Good luck and best wishes.

[Thanatos340 1]

First Off.. A $30 Gear Rental Fee is NOT normal. This is something that Skyride started and unfortunately a few (VERY FEW) Legitimate Dropzones have started doing the same thing.

It is very sad that Skyride is driving otherwise Honest businesses in to this sort of practice. As someone else explained.. Cross keys did this to compete with Skyride`s advertised prices so that customers could compare apples to apples. None the less, Two wrongs do not make a right.

At almost every Dropzone in the County, Gear Rental is Included in the price of the Tandem.

What is next?? A Tandem Master Fee?? An Airport Fee?? A Landing Area Fee??

All these things are REQUIRED to make a Tandem Skydive and therefore should be included in the Price of the Jump.

Maybe you tell them you want to Jump but dont want the Gear!!
If they wouldn’t let you Jump without it, Then it shouldn’t cost extra. It is part of the cost of the JUMP

[LawnDart21 0]

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If, after you book a skydive online, you decide to change your mind within 30 days, you will be charged a $30 fee and get a complete refund.

As a consumer, I have a problem with that statement. It's not a complete refund. They are losing $30.

Most DZs (that I am aware of) take credit card deposits to hold a reservation, and would only charge a "cancellation fee" if the person cancels within like a week of thier jump or no shows on jump day. That makes sense, as manifest is pacing its day based on a finite number of slots available each day. If a group of 40 books and then no shows, then presumably 40 other people could have been schedule for the same day, had advanced notice been giving. It is fair for a DZ to expect to be compensated for that lost revenue, and charge a cancellation fee, but to simply charge a standard cancellation fee, when the consumer gives the DZ ample time to fill the slot being cancelled is rediculous. .

My question would be, can you explain what it is that the $30 represents and where teh amount came from?

I'f I pay say $200 online to do a jump 4 weeks down the road and I decide a week later that I simply dont want to do it and want a refund, what in the world has the DZ lost that is worth $30? What is it that is worth $30 to "cancel" a tandem slot that can easily be filled before jump day? They are basically being charged:

$30 to cross thier name off of a note book?
or
$30 to press delete in JumpRun?
or
Is it because it was done online, and it costs $30 to press "cancel" online?

So, again, I ask please explain what this $30 fee is compensating the DZ for?

I can see if they cancel a day or two before the jump and its too late to fill their slot or they no show that day, the DZ is entitled to a reasonable fee to accomidate what they would have made had another tandem jump been made in that lost slot, which could have been refilled had adequate notice was given. If adequate notice is given by the customer that they would like to cancel their reservation, they should be allowed to do so without being charged $30 to erase their name off of a manifest notebook

Charging a $30 cancellation fee, simply for the act of "cancelling a reservation", may be legal, but that doesnt make it ethical.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[javajunkie 0]

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***Charging a $30 cancellation fee, simply for the act of "cancelling a reservation", may be legal, but that doesnt make it ethical.

I don't know if I would call it unethical. It's pretty common in a lot of consumer industries. A couple of months ago, I booked a flight, and then found out that I wouldn't be able to fly on the day I orginally had planned. Even though it was still over a month and a half before my flight, American Airlines charged me $50 to change my reservation to a different day. They would have charged me $75 to get a refund for the $400 I had paid for the ticket. I would have called it unethical if they had charged me $75 for canceling, and still charged me $400 for the ticket I didn't use, without my permission.

A few weeks ago, I had to cancel my reservation at a day spa. I canceled with 10 days notice and was charged a $25 cancellation fee, though I was not charged the full price of the spa appointment.

You are right that the spa probably didn't do $25 worth of work in making my reservation and then canceling it, nor did the airline do $50 worth of work in rescheduling my flight. Nonetheless, this is a common practice and I was aware both times that I would be charged this fee for canceling, so I wouldn't call it unethical. It would be completely unethical if any of these places charged me the full amount for the service I never used, without my permission, or if they charged me a cancellation fee that I was never told about. Cross Keys does say, right upfront, that there will be a $30 cancellation fee, and that seems fine by me.