Should students be made to look at fatality pictures?

[Newbie 0]

I read a thread in General where someone had posted the really sad video of the poor young kid who went in because his parents wanted him to be the worlds youngest skydiver or something like that.

Generalising somewhat, the reactions seemed to go like this:

Newer jumpers were appalled and called for a ban on the video

Older jumpers thought it would help stop making people complacent and could therefore be a learning aid. I think someone even suggested running it at manifest. Although i don't think they were being completely serious, i could see the point that person was trying to make.

I read often - and agree with - that often, due to being new, and equipment advances and AAD's, RSL's etc etc, newer jumpers can feel immune and not appreciate the dangers and the "it can happen to you even if you do everything right" scenario.

Should scare tactics be used to make people realise what they are getting into to try to quash irresponsible behaviour or to bring about a greater sense of realisation of the consequence of actions?

When i say "scare tactics", i mean "tactics that are scary to achieve results". I don't mean "tactics used to scare people where the outcomes are never as bad as what they might appear to be". Obviously we all know what the outcomes can be, but i think we have all run across people that see themselves as immune, or above what perhaps others might be saying as a way to keep them safe, either from themselves or others on the load.

I heard somewhere what aspiring TI's have to see fatality pictures to make them realise what they are getting into. At first i was shocked by this, thinking it was quite morbid, then i realised - if true - it could really help shock them into realising it is more than just their own ass on the line, as well as a means to appreciate the extra complications of tandem gear.

Thoughts on what is admittedly a largely hypothetical situation?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[phoenixlpr 0]

I don't think so.

Most of the students are giving up early anyway <2 <10 <30 jumps.

[Lindsey 0]

I don't think "scare tactics" should be used, because when they are people just shrug them off as "scare tactics" and nothing more.

I do think that sometimes instructors may want their students to feel optimistic about skydiving, and maybe sometimes the dangers of the sport aren't emphasized enough. When people have asked me if skydiving was safe, I've always told them that it is NOT safe, that jumping out of an airplane is inherently life-threatening.

I don't think that students should be made to look at fatality pictures. I don't personally want to see the pictures myself, either. But I don't think it's a bad idea for students to be given the opportunity to see such photos if that's what they need to convince themselves to take the dangers inherent to the sport seriously....

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[goose491 0]

With moderation, I don't see any reason NOT to show new jumpers the darker side of the sport.

I have been told by more then one experienced jumper that "If you stick around in this sport, you will lose friends to it." That as a guarantee!

The concept of showing a newbie a video of someone going in or landing hard and getting injured, or a picture of a hole in the ground... well I would liken it to showing the vedio of a drunk driver killing a family in drivers Ed. But even there, the drunk driver is something you may not ever see during your driving career, whereas a skydiving incident is promised to you if you maintain. It is that much more imperative that one accept the risks involved and respect them.

I'd vote for it. But like I said, in moderation... We aren't all about the Black Death right?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[airtwardo 7]

I do think that sometimes instructors may want their students to feel optimistic about skydiving, and maybe sometimes the dangers of the sport aren't emphasized enough. When people have asked me if skydiving was safe, I've always told them that it is NOT safe, that jumping out of an airplane is inherently life-threatening.

***

Back in the dark ages, when I did a LOT of S/L instruction, the first thing I would start my class off with was the old explanation of how the sport IS dangerous..."Everything you do now or hope to do in the future 'could' be changed today..."

"....for us as skydivers, and perhaps all of you, the trade off is worth the experience."


I'd then go into discussion about that IF the students wanted to....but usually they didn't.

They tend to have at least some basic understanding that this is a high risk sport, especially in the beginning.

I don't think pushing the gloom & doom aspects hard do anything to promote the sport, and tend to create unnecessary stress that impedes the instruction process.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 2,991]

>Should scare tactics be used to make people realise what they are
>getting into to try to quash irresponsible behaviour or to bring about
>a greater sense of realisation of the consequence of actions?

You mean, should you show every student bounce videos? No. Is it a good tool for some? Yes. One of the things any good instructor has to understand is how to reach their students. You need a totally different approach for a 30 year old female dentist than for a bunch of 18 year old Navy guys.

[Chilly_Dk 0]

Quote

I've always told them that it is NOT safe, that jumping out of an airplane is inherently life-threatening.

I agree on this one. I also tell my students in the beginning that there is a potential risk in this sport.
Lets face it; moving towards the earth with 120 mph IS a hazard if you do not do anything at all.

The training, student program and equipment available these days have all minimized this risk, but you still need to do the right thing! If not, you are in danger of hurting yourself.

Back to the question on whether to show videos or not. To a student, I don't think so.
The same with trafic. You are taught how to drive, and told the dangers: If you don't brake at a certain point, you end up hurting yourself. If you go into the wrong side of the road, you end up killing yourself.
But you are not shown videos or pictures of people killed, even though the chances are present.

Information is better than scare tectics in my opinion. When it comes to tandem instructors, I find it to more informative than scaring. I did my TI rating, and the videos was used as a learning tool.


A final note: I have also experienced people who tend to proclaim that our sport is very safe, also to students. I find this wrong, since it helps to take away the respect and thereby the responsibility. People are still responsible for their own sake, and their own actions.

This brings me back to the traffic. When people loose too much respect, you see advertising and campains showing pictures and even movies of people that are hurt. This is a result of lack of respect.
If people won't listen, it's time to bring out the heavy stuff. Same situation in skydiving?? Yeah, if people don't listen, I would consider it. As a learning tool.


Be safe

It's all right to have butterflies in your stomach. Just get them to fly in formation.

[bianuan 0]

When i first started i knew damn well that this sport could kill me, 100 jumps later and that isnt so apparent in the forefront of my mind when i jump.
I dont believe it is the students who need the reality check, but jumpers like myself who havent seen anything nasty - thank god for that but it has given me the chance and time to get complacement about these things as it never seems to happen.
Saying that I find DZ.com is very good at keeping my awareness up and increasing my knowledge. Especially in regards to what terrible things can and do happen in this sport.

Ann

[councilman24 37]

No need to show new students bounce video.

But,

"BACK IN THE OLD DAYS" when we left the airplane we knew we would die unless we took some additional positive action. We knew parachutes often didn't work because we saw malfunctions routinely. We knew students on rounds broke their legs even if they did every thing more or less right. And for the most part landings couldn't kill us. Break us yes but not kill.

The sport IS different with a cypres. And some of the mental challange of facing death is gone. But it still kills.

As does most every other high adventure sport.

I think a LOT of newer jumpers need a reality check. But watching someone die is a little over the line. Of course we watch it on TV news all the time. Maybe it isn't anymore.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[LawnDart21 0]

I don't believe that showing a new skydiver pictures of fatalies is appropriate. It's one thing to say you could get killed, its another thing altogether to show someone graphic fatality pictures.

I am not trying to downplay the risk of death in the sport, but lets face it, there are 10s of thousands of skydivers all around the world, making 100s of thousands of jumps each year, and despite the fact we lose on average, 30 skydivers a year to fatalities, the majority of skydivers in the world can reasonably expect to live a long healthy life.

That said, I think its important to inform all of our new jumpers about the very real risk of injury or death, but in a way that produces 1) an informed decision by the student to procede, knowing the risks, and B) offers a positive reinforcement that teh majority of the risk in the sport can be mitigated.

I don't consider myself a daredevil because I skydive. (I'm a daredevil for discussing politics with my in-laws at holiday gatherings.......)

That said, I always try to have a serious (yet positive) exchange with anyone new to the sport, where I ask them to give thought to all the other great things in their life, ie, family, children, friends, other dreams and aspirations they have. I then ask them to consider weighing losing all that for a skydive. That skydiving is unique in that its one of the few sports in the world that you can do everything right and still die. While the chances are of course not as high as the general population would think, they still are very real and need to be considered.

I just ask the newer jumpers consider all that their lives have to offer before they persue the sport. For some the risk is simply not worth the reward, and its better they recognize it in the early stage of thier skydiving career, and for others it is the right choice, and they go on to fly circles around the rest of us. Where you fall in that catergory isnt important, that you take the time to evaluate it is.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Andy_Copland 0]

I think the same effect can be achieved if you showed a video of someone having problems and cutting the video short of the impact, knowing that the person in the video just went in would be enough. Tell the students what the jumper did wrong and learn from it, i dont think any student let alone seasoned jumper wants to see a corpse.

What is there to learn from it?

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[billvon 2,991]

>I think the same effect can be achieved if you showed a video of
>someone having problems and cutting the video short of the impact . . .

They would likely assume it had been faked, if they are of the type who don't believe they can die skydiving. Heck, someone I knew once watched a REAL bounce video and fervently believed that it had all been staged. The guy who had taken the video also had some stills of the aftermath which I would have been tempted to show him if he still had the stills, which he didn't.

>What is there to learn from it?

This guy might have learned he could die, which is a useful lesson.

[Beverly 1]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1869776;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Have a look at this thread

I think true friendship is under-rated

Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa

[FrEaK_aCcIdEnT 0]

In my opinion...

Im new to the sport with 7 jumps. I wasnt thrilled about seeing that video clip, but i wanted to see it anyway. I am glad i did see it. I know what i am getting myself into and that is my choice.

Im not out to kill myself, but I feel it is important to see the "darker" side of any activity that has risks involved.

When u go through drivers ed they show u crash pics. To make u realize what responsability u are undertaking. Same with motorcycle saftey training. I have seen some horrible vids of motorcycle crashes. a high percentage were the rider didnt make it. It makes me realize that I can easily kill myself if I loose focus or take the ride for granted.

Same rules apply to skydiving. when i approach a friend that wants to try it out, i let them make that decision. I dont peer pressure them till they do it. I feel that would be bad on my concience(sp?) if they went in.

I fully respect all the risks involved and I know that oneday i will see someone go in with my own eyes. I cant say how i will react, but i know i will deal with it when the time comes. I know it wont make me stop wanting to persue this sport. No one made me jump

Hope that wasnt to morbid Just my opinion since im new and this directly relates to me.

[edited to correct spelling...]

ExPeCt ThE uNeXpEcTeD!
DoNt MiNd ThE tYpOs, Im LaZy On CoRrEcTiOnS!

[Andy9o8 2]

Didn't we all just have this discussion?

Deja Vu

[FrEaK_aCcIdEnT 0]

I didnt make it to that one i usually sit back on these types of topics and just soak in all the input. just felt like voicing my opinion on here

ExPeCt ThE uNeXpEcTeD!
DoNt MiNd ThE tYpOs, Im LaZy On CoRrEcTiOnS!

[outrager 6]

Quote

Should scare tactics be used to make people realise what they are getting into to try to quash irresponsible behaviour or to bring about a greater sense of realisation of the consequence of actions?

Most BASE students nowadays get to see a carnage tape that includes a fair number of fatalities filmed from multiple angles (including very graphic close-ups) and countless cliff strikes, broken bones, etc.

While it provides a lot of technical info, the main goal is to give a reality check: this really may happen to you, and statistically - at least to some degree - will happen sooner or later.

As far as i know, up to this day, nobody decided to quit after watching the tape. It is hard to estimate how many accidents the tape may have prevented, but nobody called it a waste of time yet.

Of course most skydivers today are rather thin-skinned, and will likely provide very different statistics.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[Andy_Copland 0]

Maybe im just being ignorant here but i was unaware that people existed who thought skydiving was so safe that they would think a bounce video was fake.

The fatality database is enough to make my throat dry every time i gear up. Maybe the simple answer is its up to the staff to decide if it would be appropriate for some students to show such a video

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[phoenixlpr 0]

I have read BASE fatality list. There are plenty of suicide there :(

[billvon 2,991]

>Maybe im just being ignorant here but i was unaware that people
>existed who thought skydiving was so safe that they would think a
> bounce video was fake.

There sure are. It's primarily a defense mechanism.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I don't think pushing the gloom & doom aspects hard do anything to promote the sport, and tend to create unnecessary stress that impedes the instruction process.

I think for every student helped by such videos, there would be several needlessly distracted, as you suggest.

I was plenty jacked up by the end of the FJC. Made even worse by getting weathered out and having no release. A carnage video would have contributed nothing useful.

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

As far as i know, up to this day, nobody decided to quit after watching the tape.

I know somebody who did. Or who at least decided pretty affirmatively NOT to take up base after all (who WAS PLANNING TO), after watching this (or similar) ...if we are talking about the same tape.

Long time no see/no talk to Yuri!
Ran into your brother last season up in Pepperell. Didn't know that you actively posted here. Good to "see" you!

-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[jumpwally 0]

A more positive step would be to go over EP's and other safety items over and over,,,,,

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[outrager 6]

Quote

I know somebody who did. Or who at least decided pretty affirmatively NOT to take up base after all (who WAS PLANNING TO), after watching this (or similar) ...if we are talking about the same tape.

There we go, at least one saved life. Good for him/her!

bsbd!

Yuri.

[LawnDart21 0]

Quote

Didn't we all just have this discussion?

Yes, but for some reason that escapes my understanding, some people feel compelled to continously have the same discussions over and over again that center around the fact that (news flash) skydiving can kill you........

I think it's just some people's way of dealing with their fears to continually talk about it, to each ther own I guess.

And for anyone about to call "bullshit", ask yourself, why is this post in General Skydiving and not the Instructors or Safety & Training forums?

Its in General Skydiving for shock value, so more people can keep talking about "burning in" and "bouncing"..................and "views" and "replies" will be higher.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.