surviving freefall

[woodpecker 0]

Has anyone else watched this show on tv? A fellow skydive and I watched this load of crap last night and I'm wondering how they are able to make such a show without anyone who's an expert, or even a skydiver having input.

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[JohnGraham 0]

What is it? Is it supposed to be factual? The TV always likes to sensationalise everything

[woodpecker 0]

It was supposed to be factual. It was stories from three people that survived bouncing in. At least that is what it was supposed to be. First person was doing her second AFF jump (said from 4k), but i dont remember jumping from 4K on any freefall. Hell, i dont consider a jump from that height a freefall. Anyway, they just said they lost sight of her when she pulled, no other information was given. However, the show kept making it sound like she just bounced (no canopy). Never made a reference to where her instructors where on the jump, how many canopies were open when they found her, where her handles still attached, etc. Then they interviewed her and she didnt remember anything.

Second persron was a britich para. who on a static, had full canopy, released his kit and said the shock released one of his release latches on his riser. He burned in, shattered his tib/fib and had it amputated.

This one is the best....Number three wasnt even a F* skydiver/jumper. Slipped off the side of a mountain on a hike in the snow.

Sorry so long winded. It just pisses me off when TV and the media make our sport out to be so dangerous when they cant even get all/if any of the facts about accidents. Just venting to my fellow jumpers really. If you want a good laugh, or your blood pressure to rise a little, look out for the show.

Blue Skies

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[mr2mk1g 10]

If you're referring to this program: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1589669

1) you mis-viewed the program in a VERY big way.
2) you're over-reacting to the mild hyperbole that was shown.
3) from 4,000ft you're gonna get arround 15 seconds of freefall.
4) it was a static line progression jump NOT an AFF jump.
5) She exited at 4,000ft and the program stated she initiated her main deployment after a 5second delay (perfectly normal).
6) your instructors don't often jump with you during S/L progression
7) the program specifically concluded that she must have had a canopy out after conducting tests in a wind tunnel.
8) were you drunk/high when you watched this program?

[woodpecker 0]

AHHH!!! Thanks for clearing it up for me.

It was late and i just finished swimming a 1500 after a long day at work. Apparently I missed interpreted what happened to her when I was watching two instructors jumping with a student but listening to her speaking.

But thats why I post here....for education and clarification!

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[twibbles 0]

Quote

I'm wondering how they are able to make such a show without anyone who's an expert, or even a skydiver having input.

They had the CCI (chief instructor ) of one of the biggest DZ in the UK on the program talking them through. He's an RAF instructor as well, teaches Paras to jump.

Eugene

edited to add: DZ referred to above is a military DZ run by the Royal Air force.

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of
people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."

[woodpecker 0]

true. But wasnt his focus on PLF? Am I missing someone in the show. The only CCI I saw was the one that explained PLF's and did the study with the pressure plates.

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[mr2mk1g 10]

I basically saw the show as being an examination of three different mechanisms which can lead to survival of a high fall.

1) a crumple zone - case study: the paratrooper. He survived because he PLFed and his leg also absorbed a lot of energy when it was crushed.

2) soft landing area - case study: the climber. They survived because they landed in soft snow.

3) drag - case study: the skydiver. She survived in part because she had two malfunctioning canopies out slowing her descent to as little as 40mph.

[twibbles 0]

I have to admit i saw the show a few months back, so my memory's a bit fuzzy. I was thinking that if they got him in on the program, he'll point them in the right direction. Buy they got a skydiver in as well, i think that's the main guy they interviewed.. They took long time to get to the point, but they do have a whole hour to fill.

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of
people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."

[MrBrant 0]

Quote

It was late and i just finished swimming a 1500 after a long day at work.

What was your time?

[JohnMitchell 16]

There are two documented cases of people freefalling at terminal, no chute out, and surviving. One was a British tailgunner in WWII, one was a skydiver in the early 80's. Both fell thru trees and landing in deep snow on a slope, allowing themselves to slow down more gradually than an impact on flat ground would allow. The first had no injuries, the 2nd had a few broken bones.

[CBRnick 0]

Quote

There are two documented cases of people freefalling at terminal, no chute out, and surviving.

Forgive the long post, Im laying on bed with a cast on my ankle due to a fractured Fib, so Im trying to break the boredem...
Anyway...

There are a lot more than two documented cases.

The british airman was named Nick Alkemade.
On March 23, 1944 he was a tail gunner in an AVRO Lancaster bomber that was returning from an allied bombing raid, when they were attacked by a Junkers JU-88.
Due to the cramped space in the gun turrets, parachutes were stored in the main tail section of the Lancaster. When the body of the Lanc started to burn, Alkemade was trapped in the turret. Unable to reach his parachute, he turned his turret 180 degrees and jumped, preferring a quick death to being burned alive.

He fell from roughly 18,000 ft, and according to his diary spent the freefall thinking of his death roughly in a head down position.

His next recollection was looking up at the stars through some pine trees. He could not believe he was okay and after checking each of his arms and legs in turn and realising he was still in one piece, he sat back and smoked a cigarette while he thought about what on earth had just happened.

It seemed that the thick pine trees slowed his descent just enough for the thick snow drift he was sitting in to cushion the landing.

When he finally stood up he found that his ankle was sprained and he was not able to walk for more than a few steps at a time. A short while later a german patrol passed, and realising that he would die from hyperthermia if he didnt get help, he attracted them by whistling.

The Gestapo did not believe his story of jumping without a parachute and thought he was a spy, but eventually believed him after inspecting his parachute harness that he was still wearing, and finding the burned parachute still in the wreckage of his plane.

He remained a POW untill he was released at the end of the war.
The burned parachute, harness and supporting documentation is still on display in the Imperial War museum in the UK.

Im going to see what facts I can turn up on other cases now to fill my morning up :)

[CBRnick 0]

Next up.
Staff Sgt. Alan E. Magee of the 303rd Bomb group of the 8th Air Force
On Jan 3, 1943, 68 bombers attacked a German submarine base at St. Nazaire, France. Seven planes were lost. One of the missing aircraft was a B-17F named Snap! Crackle! Pop!, which was set afire by German flak and then exploded.

Ball turret gunner Staff Sgt. Alan E. Magee's parachute had been shredded by flak, and as he was franticly trying to find a spare the explosion threw him out through the open bomb bay at aprox 19000 feet.
He said a prayer and then blacked out.

Magee regained consciousness surrounded by men speaking German. One of his arms was badly broken.

By sheer coincidence, he made a bull's-eye landing on the skylight of St. Nazaire's train station. The shattering glass and frame slowed his descent enough not to kill him, and he fell to the floor at the feet of a group of disbelieving german navel men.

He was taken POW and a german doctor saved his arm. In the big World War 2 memorial services earlier this year he laid a plaque at the Nazaire in memory of the rest of the crew of his and other aircraft that were lost that night.

A fantastic but very well documented event :)

[CBRnick 0]

Ok, this one is not a survivor of a ground impact, but its a pretty amazing survival story.

Flight Lt. Joe Herman was flying a Handley-Page Halifax of No. 466 Squadron, Royal Australian Air Force on a bombing run in the Ruhr Valley, Germany's industrial centre.

After dropping the payload the plane was at 18000 feet when it took three direct hits. With his plane afire almost from wingtip to wingtip, Herman called for a bailout.

The upper gunner, Flight Sgt. John Vivash, was going overboard when he saw Herman reach for a chute. Then the bomber exploded. Vivash was flung into the dark night and opened his chute.
Moments later, as he descended swinging beneath the canopy, he felt a hard impact and a violent motion and believed that the parachute was dragging him over treetops when he realised that he was still in the air and there was in fact another airman hanging on his legs trying to climb up his flying suit.

After having fallen from about 17,000 feet, Herman had miraculously collided with the gunner and, equally miraculous, had been able to hold on to him, literally for his life. With twice the normal weight on the canopy, their landing was quite hard.

Herman suffered two broken ribs, but despite their injuries, the two Aussies were able to walk. They spent four days walking before the Germans captured them.where they spent the rest of the war as POW's.

[CBRnick 0]

A Russion this time, and another WW2 event.

Russian Lieutenant I. M. Chisov was flying his Ilyushin 4 on a bitter cold day in January 1942. Im unable to find out if it was a bombing run or what the flight was, when he was attacked by a number of German Messerschmitts.

Chisov bailed out at 21,980 ft. after his plane was hit He was scared of the thought that the fighter pilots would try to kill him while he was hanging helpless under his parachute, so he had a plan to freefall to around 1500 feet and open his canopy there, hopefully avoiding german gunfire.

Unfortunatly he lost conciousness during the freefall (possibly due to a minor head injury caused by shrapnel).
He woke some time later laying at the bottom of a ravine with a fractured pelvis and his parachute still firmly in its pack on his back.

It turned out that by some tiny chance, he had landed on a snow covered ridge, that was at a steep enough angle to deflect his fall onto a steep snow covered slope rather than impact. He slid down the ravine slowing all the way till he rolled to a stop at the bottom.

I cant find any details of how he was rescued from the ravine, but he appears not to have been captured because after he recovered from his injuries, he returned to active duty for the rest of the war.

[CBRnick 0]

Hmmm, going to see if I can find a more recent incident. Im interested to find out more recent documented incident.

[JohnMitchell 16]

If you can get into a data base with old "Parachutist" incident reports, you could find the modern incident of a skydiver survivng a double total malfunction. It was at a Paraski meet in the late 70's to early 80's.

There was also a jet pilot that ejected at high speed, low altitude, and went skiddping thru the tree tops in an orchard, still in the seat. Look for that one.

[CBRnick 0]

Quote

If you can get into a data base with old "Parachutist" incident reports, you could find the modern incident of a skydiver survivng a double total malfunction. It was at a Paraski meet in the late 70's to early 80's.

There was also a jet pilot that ejected at high speed, low altitude, and went skiddping thru the tree tops in an orchard, still in the seat. Look for that one.

Well after the last few posts, I went to visit my family in another part of the country.
But Im back now so Ill see if I can find out anything about those incidents.
Will give me sonmething to do tomorow instead of just sitting about waiting for this damn cast to get off my leg :) :)

[tbrown 26]

After having fallen from about 17,000 feet, Herman had miraculously collided with the gunner and, equally miraculous, had been able to hold on to him, literally for his life. With twice the normal weight on the canopy, their landing was quite hard.

[JohnMitchell 16]

Jerry Bird has been around, hasn't he? I wonder about the Z-Hills thing, if it was a true total or a partial mal. From time to time you hear of some one landing "with no chute out" but it turns out to be some kind of partial mal. Not downplaying the seriousness of it. I've had many friends injured or worse under partials. It's just blurs the edges of the "bounced and lived" or "miraculous save" definition.

Another incident made the Paul Harvey radio program a few years back. Student skydiver, reportedly with a streamer and no reserve pull, went thru a skylight on a hanger, and had his chute hang up on it, stopping safely a few feet above the concrete hanger floor. Whew! That would scare the $*%@# out of me.

[MB38 0]

I remember seeing somebody's website a while back... www.deadmike.com

He went in on the runway during the WFFC in 1997 after a parachute collision. Not a true bounce survival by its literal definition, but he survived the 80 foot fall.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[woodpecker 0]

27 minutes. Bit slow, but getting back into it.

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[freeflyflunky 0]

Okay -- so this isn't skydiving related, but it got my interest when I heard someone at a boogie mention it, and I've been curious about the details ever since.
Apparently, a woman survived a passenger plane crash a few years ago wherein the plane (somehow) came "apart" at altitude and she survived after plummeting 27k feet and falling through the canopy of a rain forest before hitting the ground. Story goes that she then managed to walk out (this is all taking place somewhere in South America) on her own.
I really want more details on this story!!! If anyone has anything else -- please let me know!

_______________________________________

Oh, and one more thing...Ninjas ARE way cooler than pirates.

[MB38 0]

There's a Myth Busters episode on www.skydivingmovies.com that discusses a flight attendant's safe landing in the tail of an aircraft. At some ridiculous altitude the plane she was in disintegrated and she fell to earth still buckled into the tail section. It landed perfectly so as to absorb the impact before crushing her... and she walked away.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[inzite 0]

One of the instructors at Borki (outside Moscow, Russia) had what I believe was a no-out impact and survived. If katzurki is lurking, he can tell us the details of the incident.

From what I remember, he landed on top of a (Mi-8 ???) helicopter door in a large snow drift while filming an action movie stunt. Several months of recovery were involved.