artistcalledian 0 #1 October 18, 2005 On my AFF i used a 280 canopy, nice and slow (at this stage, i just want to do a few turns and get down safe) i've ordered an Aerodyne pilot 170 as my main... what will the difference in speed and handling be like compared to my AFF kit? on the 280, i could pull a toggle down as far as possible to turn and it would just lumber round in a nice, slow turn. Can i do the same on a 170? what will the speed be like coming in to land? on the 280 in even moderate wind i'd have virtually no forward movement so i could concentrate on when to flair (still end up on my arse sometimes )________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mx757 4 #2 October 18, 2005 pilot 170 going to feel a lot differnt from the big 280. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #3 October 18, 2005 Like going from a Beatle to a Corvette. I don't know your weight but if it's anything over 150 you've probably picked too small a canopy. Your forward speed will be around 25 mph plus. If you make even a small turn near the ground you speed will be higher than that. Your turn rate will be something like 2-3 seconds for a 360 turn. You will be easily able to kill yourself pulling a toggle all the way down under 500', 300' somewhere there. You very much need more instruction and advice. Including transition jumps on much larger than 170 canopies. I'll let others give it here. edit Hmmm was that strong enough. Probably NOT!I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #4 October 18, 2005 Good luck. Seriously, don't go to the 170 in one step from the 280. Try renting, borrowing, demoing, begging a 230 and a 190 in between and put a number of jumps on both. Depending on your wingload, the 170 will be pretty fast, and a pilot will handle a lot faster than a student canopy as well. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #5 October 18, 2005 Quotei've ordered an Aerodyne pilot 170 as my main... Why?"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #6 October 18, 2005 oh shit i spoke to an AFF instructor (who also owns the gear shop at my DZ) about buying my own rig, he said if you can afford it then yeah, why not i'm 190lbs and he recommended the pilot 170 to me he knows i'm on a 280 at the moment ! i'm really worried now, i trust eerything that i'm told by my instructors, so being told a pilot is a nice canopy and a 170 will be fine, i'm now doubting what i've been told... what else have i been told wrong? i think i need to speak to him and tell him my fears... i'm down there this weekend. i ordered it all just over 4 weeks ago (through his shop) will it be too late to change my order? he said it should take about 12 weeks to arrive. I'm really worried i've fucked up big time ________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #7 October 18, 2005 Quote oh shit i spoke to an AFF instructor (who also owns the gear shop at my DZ) about buying my own rig, he said if you can afford it then yeah, why not i'm 190lbs and he recommended the pilot 170 to me he knows i'm on a 280 at the moment ! i'm really worried now, i trust eerything that i'm told by my instructors, so being told a pilot is a nice canopy and a 170 will be fine, i'm now doubting what i've been told... what else have i been told wrong? i think i need to speak to him and tell him my fears... i'm down there this weekend. i ordered it all just over 4 weeks ago (through his shop) will it be too late to change my order? he said it should take about 12 weeks to arrive. I'm really worried i've fucked up big time 190lbs with or without gear ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #8 October 18, 2005 Your instructor knows you better then we do. But, that's a 1.3 wingload. Even by taking it in steps, its a pretty high wingload for someone with less the 100 jumps, never mind someone just off student status.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #9 October 18, 2005 without gear ________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #10 October 18, 2005 >On my AFF i used a 280 canopy, nice and slow (at this stage, i just > want to do a few turns and get down safe) i've ordered an Aerodyne > pilot 170 as my main... what will the difference in speed and > handling be like compared to my AFF kit? Night and day. If you pull down a toggle at 50 feet on the Manta, you'll turn. If you let it back up you'll stop, and you'd probably be able to flare and land OK. If you do that under a Pilot 168 loaded at a little over 1:1 you will likely be seriously injured. >on the 280, i could pull a toggle down as far as possible to turn and > it would just lumber round in a nice, slow turn. Can i do the same on > a 170? No. You risk line twist if you do that. >what will the speed be like coming in to land? Significantly faster. You will need a dynamic flare; in other words, you can't just pull the toggles down to flare. If you do try to do this in one step (a bad idea) here's what may happen: 1. You'll come in much faster than normal. 2. Your brain will process this as being lower than normal (speed=proximity to our brains) and you will flare high. 3. The canopy will plane out and then climb. 4. Since it won't climb exactly evenly, you will perceive that you are falling to one side. 5. You'll "stick your hand out to break your fall" and pull harder on that toggle. 6. The canopy will turn as instructed and hammer you into the ground. I mention this scenario because I have seen it a dozen times. A much better idea would be a more gradual progression. Depending on your weight, a good progression might be: Navigator 220 Triathalon 190 Pilot 168 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #11 October 18, 2005 >i ordered it all just over 4 weeks ago (through his shop) will it be too > late to change my order? he said it should take about 12 weeks to >arrive. I'm really worried i've fucked up big time . . . 12 weeks sounds like enough time to make the transition. If it does come in and you're not quite ready for it, then just borrow something like a Tri 190 and jump with that fo a while. Most containers can go up or down one size without a problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #12 October 18, 2005 Quoteyou do that under a Pilot 168 loaded at a little over 1:1 you will likely be seriously injured. Make that 1.3 Bill....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tigra 0 #13 October 18, 2005 More like a station wagon to a Corvette- my Beetle is pretty zippy! (Unless you're talking about the old ones!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerd137 0 #14 October 18, 2005 Just for some perspective, I also started on a 280 but didn't move down to a 190 until I had about 100 jumps. A 190 puts me just over a 1:1 wingloading. Granted, I'm not the most talented canopy pilot who ever lived, but I think moving down slowly and incrementally was a good idea. Just my $0.02. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #15 October 18, 2005 Personally, I would follow what billvon recommended and go for some sizes inbetween. You could keep the 170 but see if you can borrow some bigger canopies before trying the 170 out. 280 to 170 is a large step. Hell, the difference when I went from 210 to 170 felt pretty big. You only have 15 jumps though. At 15 jumps I was down to 260. By the time I as off student status I was at 210. Perhaps you will be downsizing in your student progression as well?Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #16 October 18, 2005 Quotei trust eerything that i'm told by my instructors A piece of paper that says "instructor" or "rigger" doesn't mean that the person knows what they are talking about, or that they have your safety and longevity in the sport in mind when giving "advice." This is why many people suggest that new jumpers not buy gear until they have had a chance to downsize safely from student sized canopies and jump a variety of different mains - since only you know how fast you feel safe going, only you know how much risk you are willing to accept and only you can decide which canopy type/model/manufacturer is right for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites artistcalledian 0 #17 October 18, 2005 oh my god !!! why have they told me to order the pilot 168? no way on earth am i ready for what you've said. I have to look for reference points when i'm landing to guess how high i am (and i'm just floating down and not really moving forwards !!!) i alternate between looking to the side and down at the ground to judge when to flair I need to sort this out as i'm not happy at all________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #18 October 18, 2005 Quotei'm 190lbs Blush and he recommended the pilot 170 to me That's a very aggresive recomendation. I usually think "ask your instructor" is good advice to someone seeking canopy advise, after all - they know you best. In this case though.... I think you might be wise to find someone else to ask advice from. It would be wise at least to see if Aerodyne can change your order from a 170 to 190. A 190 is not much larger, but will likely mean you'll only have minor injuries instead of major ones if you screw up. Granted you can kill yourself under any canopy, but a bit bigger margin of error is smart. I know when I was at your level I sure made a lot of mistakes - I'm glad I was under a canopy that let me walk away from them. If you do end up keeping that 170... Be sure to move very gradually to it. Always go down one size at a time, and do a few jumps on each canopy. Do a few jumps on a 260, a 240, a 220, 200, 190, then finally move to the 170. Once you get to about the 200-ish sizes, don't move smaller unless you hit all these points: 1) Stand up every landing. Always. 2) Be able to land uphill, and downhill 3) Be able to land crosswind, and downwind. 4) Be able to do a 90 degree flat turn at 200 feet. Ideally it should take you more than a few monthes of active jumping to make this progression. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #19 October 18, 2005 Relax, think about it, talk to the guy who sold you the canopy and find out what your options are (if any) to change to a larger Pilot. If you decide that's the right solution, it may still be possible at this point. Also, you may want to contact Aerodyne directly (see the "manufacturer contacts" post at the top of the Gear and Rigging forum for contact info) and explain the situation and see if they'll help you as well. As Lisa said, sometimes the most experienced folks don't have your best interests in mind. It could just be that he's been flying a super-high wingloading or super-small canopy for so long, he forgets how unforgiving a 1.3 wingloading can be for a new jumper. Maybe he looked at you and thought you weighed less than you do (I got that from a couple folks and was surprised by the size canopy they recommended and had to say "Are you sure?" and told them my weight, and they backed off). Whatever his motivation, you're doing this research at the right time - BEFORE you jump that canopy."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites artistcalledian 0 #20 October 18, 2005 i'm goin to ring him and tell him i've seeked advice and been told i'm no where near ready for a 170 see what he says its hard when you're a student doing this, you want to put your trust in somebody so they take care of you..kind of look up to these people if you know what i mean? this has really annoyed me and destroyed some trust to be honest... i need to stay calm and tell them my fears without going in off the deep end cheers for the warning folks________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jackpunx 0 #21 October 18, 2005 during my AFF they are downsizing me. I went from a 280 to a 260 and my next jump will be a 240.. Let us know what he says Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites artistcalledian 0 #22 October 18, 2005 Progress report : LOL spoke to my instructor about my fears and got this responce he told me that before he recommended the 170 to me, he had already spoken to the other 2 instructors about me and they said i should be on a 170 once they are confident about my canopy skills. they hadn't told me this, but they decided that they will downsize me on my consol jumps and keep monitoring my performance untill mine turns up... even once its turned up, if they feel i'm not ready for it, they won't allow me to jump it. they will give me radio while i'm down sizing anyway. looks like it should be ok and they have been sorting it out behind my back without telling me panic over... nothing to see here, move along now________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jackpunx 0 #23 October 18, 2005 QuoteProgress report : LOL spoke to my instructor about my fears and got this responce he told me that before he recommended the 170 to me, he had already spoken to the other 2 instructors about me and they said i should be on a 170 once they are confident about my canopy skills. they hadn't told me this, but they decided that they will downsize me on my consol jumps and keep monitoring my performance untill mine turns up... even once its turned up, if they feel i'm not ready for it, they won't allow me to jump it. they will give me radio while i'm down sizing anyway. looks like it should be ok and they have been sorting it out behind my back without telling me panic over... nothing to see here, move along now LMAO.. good one! Your instructors should know you and your abilities.. but keep in mind.. lots of more experienced jumpers ie. 200+ jumps dont jump 1.3 wing load.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 30 #24 October 18, 2005 Regardless of the step downs they take you through, a 1.3 loading at your level is very aggressive. Keep that in mind.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stevehamiltonxl 0 #25 October 18, 2005 A little quiz here....190lb jumper (exit weight) on a 190 sqft canopy......120lb jumper(exit weight0 on same type of canopy 120sqft......both 1:1 ratio...will they experience the same performance ? Different? Why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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GTAVercetti 0 #15 October 18, 2005 Personally, I would follow what billvon recommended and go for some sizes inbetween. You could keep the 170 but see if you can borrow some bigger canopies before trying the 170 out. 280 to 170 is a large step. Hell, the difference when I went from 210 to 170 felt pretty big. You only have 15 jumps though. At 15 jumps I was down to 260. By the time I as off student status I was at 210. Perhaps you will be downsizing in your student progression as well?Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #16 October 18, 2005 Quotei trust eerything that i'm told by my instructors A piece of paper that says "instructor" or "rigger" doesn't mean that the person knows what they are talking about, or that they have your safety and longevity in the sport in mind when giving "advice." This is why many people suggest that new jumpers not buy gear until they have had a chance to downsize safely from student sized canopies and jump a variety of different mains - since only you know how fast you feel safe going, only you know how much risk you are willing to accept and only you can decide which canopy type/model/manufacturer is right for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #17 October 18, 2005 oh my god !!! why have they told me to order the pilot 168? no way on earth am i ready for what you've said. I have to look for reference points when i'm landing to guess how high i am (and i'm just floating down and not really moving forwards !!!) i alternate between looking to the side and down at the ground to judge when to flair I need to sort this out as i'm not happy at all________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #18 October 18, 2005 Quotei'm 190lbs Blush and he recommended the pilot 170 to me That's a very aggresive recomendation. I usually think "ask your instructor" is good advice to someone seeking canopy advise, after all - they know you best. In this case though.... I think you might be wise to find someone else to ask advice from. It would be wise at least to see if Aerodyne can change your order from a 170 to 190. A 190 is not much larger, but will likely mean you'll only have minor injuries instead of major ones if you screw up. Granted you can kill yourself under any canopy, but a bit bigger margin of error is smart. I know when I was at your level I sure made a lot of mistakes - I'm glad I was under a canopy that let me walk away from them. If you do end up keeping that 170... Be sure to move very gradually to it. Always go down one size at a time, and do a few jumps on each canopy. Do a few jumps on a 260, a 240, a 220, 200, 190, then finally move to the 170. Once you get to about the 200-ish sizes, don't move smaller unless you hit all these points: 1) Stand up every landing. Always. 2) Be able to land uphill, and downhill 3) Be able to land crosswind, and downwind. 4) Be able to do a 90 degree flat turn at 200 feet. Ideally it should take you more than a few monthes of active jumping to make this progression. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #19 October 18, 2005 Relax, think about it, talk to the guy who sold you the canopy and find out what your options are (if any) to change to a larger Pilot. If you decide that's the right solution, it may still be possible at this point. Also, you may want to contact Aerodyne directly (see the "manufacturer contacts" post at the top of the Gear and Rigging forum for contact info) and explain the situation and see if they'll help you as well. As Lisa said, sometimes the most experienced folks don't have your best interests in mind. It could just be that he's been flying a super-high wingloading or super-small canopy for so long, he forgets how unforgiving a 1.3 wingloading can be for a new jumper. Maybe he looked at you and thought you weighed less than you do (I got that from a couple folks and was surprised by the size canopy they recommended and had to say "Are you sure?" and told them my weight, and they backed off). Whatever his motivation, you're doing this research at the right time - BEFORE you jump that canopy."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #20 October 18, 2005 i'm goin to ring him and tell him i've seeked advice and been told i'm no where near ready for a 170 see what he says its hard when you're a student doing this, you want to put your trust in somebody so they take care of you..kind of look up to these people if you know what i mean? this has really annoyed me and destroyed some trust to be honest... i need to stay calm and tell them my fears without going in off the deep end cheers for the warning folks________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jackpunx 0 #21 October 18, 2005 during my AFF they are downsizing me. I went from a 280 to a 260 and my next jump will be a 240.. Let us know what he says Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #22 October 18, 2005 Progress report : LOL spoke to my instructor about my fears and got this responce he told me that before he recommended the 170 to me, he had already spoken to the other 2 instructors about me and they said i should be on a 170 once they are confident about my canopy skills. they hadn't told me this, but they decided that they will downsize me on my consol jumps and keep monitoring my performance untill mine turns up... even once its turned up, if they feel i'm not ready for it, they won't allow me to jump it. they will give me radio while i'm down sizing anyway. looks like it should be ok and they have been sorting it out behind my back without telling me panic over... nothing to see here, move along now________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jackpunx 0 #23 October 18, 2005 QuoteProgress report : LOL spoke to my instructor about my fears and got this responce he told me that before he recommended the 170 to me, he had already spoken to the other 2 instructors about me and they said i should be on a 170 once they are confident about my canopy skills. they hadn't told me this, but they decided that they will downsize me on my consol jumps and keep monitoring my performance untill mine turns up... even once its turned up, if they feel i'm not ready for it, they won't allow me to jump it. they will give me radio while i'm down sizing anyway. looks like it should be ok and they have been sorting it out behind my back without telling me panic over... nothing to see here, move along now LMAO.. good one! Your instructors should know you and your abilities.. but keep in mind.. lots of more experienced jumpers ie. 200+ jumps dont jump 1.3 wing load.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #24 October 18, 2005 Regardless of the step downs they take you through, a 1.3 loading at your level is very aggressive. Keep that in mind.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevehamiltonxl 0 #25 October 18, 2005 A little quiz here....190lb jumper (exit weight) on a 190 sqft canopy......120lb jumper(exit weight0 on same type of canopy 120sqft......both 1:1 ratio...will they experience the same performance ? Different? Why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
