Would you let a 13 year old do a tandem?

[LawnDart21 0]

At the end of the day of jumping yesterday I was approached by a gentleman who was in our spectator area watching us land (tandems) and he asked what the minimum age was for doing a tandem. I said 18, and he said, c'mon now, what is the real minimum?, like I was hold back on him or something. He said he had a 13 year old daughter that really wanted to go on a tandem. I told him, that based on our state's laws, our DZs policies, the gear makers policies, etc, that no one under 18 could legally sign our waivers, and that we would certainly welcome his daugher for a tandem on her 18th birthday.

Well, that wasn't the answer he was looking for. I clearly explained that a 13 yr old can't sign a consent waiver. And cited as an example if she were to get hurt, beyond the DZ and myself as the instructor, that she could sue her father for needlessly endangering her, etc, ect.

He got kind of pompous, and said, I have an attorney, whom I'll be consulting and we'll be back, we'll just see about that waiver.

I kept my cool (despite my blood pressure rising) and said, as long as your lawyer is over 18, I'd be happy to take them on a tandem as well, but no attorney in the world is going to be able to get your daughter to make a tandem skydive here before she turns 18. He snapped "we'll just see about that" and stormed off.

I had an awesome weekend, 27 tandems in two days, and some whuffo knucklehead has to go and ruin my good vibe by being a cocky whuffo. I dont care how much money he offered, I am not taking Veruca Salt on a tandem at 13 years old.

What a buzz kill.

Anyone else have similar expierences?

Tom

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[jumpwally 0]

This clearly shows the reasons why the answer should be " NO".....................

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[Genn 0]

I would've just told him to try a NON-USPA DZ.

No need to argue....unless you're in the mood.

edit: to answer the question...Yes!

[psipike02 0]

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I am not taking Veruca Salt on a tandem at 13 years old.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAH.....what a great line, you shouldve said that to him...oh man, would that've been funny....

Puttin' some stank on it.

----Hellfish #707----

[popsjumper 2]

I dunno...waht did she look like?

j/k

Sounds like one of those pompous asses with more $ than sense.

Sorry 'bout the lost vibes.

When wuffos ask me stuff, I'll give 'em the answer and if they want to argue, I'll refer them to the DZO and let her handle it - great personable vibe saver....sometimes it sucks to be a DZO, eh?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Jeff.Donohue 0]

I'm not sure where you're located (and it would matter what state you're in), but I'll give you an answer that would probably apply to Massachusetts: a 13 year old can sign a waiver, but it is waivable at the discretion of the 13 year old !

In other words, if she was injured, she (or her guardian) could simply say, "I choose for the terms of the waiver to not apply". Incidentally, if there was any benefit that the waiver did give her (I can't think of any in the typical DZ waiver, but plaintiffs' lawyers are creative), she would be able to take that benefit without having being bound by the rest of the contract (the part that helps you and the DZ).

Even if dad (and mom -- because you never know what trouble could arise if mom didn't agree) did sign on her behalf and as her guardians, your gut instinct would probably be right. Imagine the worst case -- the poor girl gets seriously harmed. The state/child services steps in on some sort of child endangerment action, and (as her guardian) the state/child services voids the part of the waiver that it doesn't like. Now picture the jury trial: "poor little girl didn't know what she was doing, and trusted this experienced skydiver to protect her..."

In short, contracting with kids and the insane (and insane kids) is tricky.

Having said that, I don't really work on issues of this sort (I'm a securities lawyer), but my gut is (i) dad is a moron; and (ii) you're well within your rights.

Disclaimer: this is not legal advice.

[edited to fix spelling error and add clarification.]

[dragon2 2]

He can take his daughter to The Netherlands, or other countries in Europe, no problem here, as long as her parent or guardian signs a waiver.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[goose491 0]

Here in Canada it's 18. But you can do a tandem at 16 with a waiver and a signed consent form from legal guardian. A lot of DZs require the legal guardian to be present the day of the jump as well.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[mr2mk1g 10]

Fall back position is: fine - let the daughter sign the waiver, hell he can sign too if he likes. Then don't take her for a tandem anyway. It's your business, no one can force you to extend services to anyone you don't want to. Nor can the law require you to allow them onto your property – ie ask them to leave.

Of course there are far better ways of dealing with the situation which don't make the whole skydiving world seem like arseholes... but if he insists on being a moron there's nothing in the law which gives him the power to make you do something you don't want to do.

[FrogNog 1]

That guy's problem is that in the U.S. parents don't make law, he doesn't make law, and 13 year-olds don't make law. Lawmaker make law and judges refine them, and it is our collective understanding that contract law as it has been made and refined says what you said: that a 13 year-old cannot be bound by contract well enough for skydiving.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[ryoder 1,590]

The kind of guy that would be quick to bring in an attorney when you tell him his daughter can't jump, would likely be just as quick to bring in an attorney when you do let her jump, and she gets hurt. I sure as hell wouldn't want someone like that as a customer if I was a DZO.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[chuteless 1]

SURE.....no reason not to allow it.

My son did a few jumps at 12 yrs old, and everything went very well ( although not in CSPA's eyes) LOL

Bill Cole D-41

[Kris 0]

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SURE.....no reason not to allow it.

Are you kidding? There are several reasons not to allow it, the foremost being that a waiver wouldn't apply.

Bill Booth has claimed that it will be an underage tandem that does in his company, PD, and Airtec.

He's right, since a minor cannot sign away their right to sue, nor can an adult sign away that minor's right in the USA.

If Veruca Salt gets injured or killed on her tandem her parents can sue everyone involved, including Cessna and even the people who provided fuel for the damn plane.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[OSOK 0]

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I kept my cool (despite my blood pressure rising) and said, as long as your lawyer is over 18, I'd be happy to take them on a tandem as well

Priceless.

[chuteless 1]

Kids younger than 16 have flown airplanes...driven tractors, and done most everything else.

If the kid has sufficient knowledge of the sport, and can do it, let him.

Bill Cole

[gemini 0]

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If the kid has sufficient knowledge of the sport, and can do it, let him.

Not that simple Bill. Hell I wouldn't even let Trent jump if he wasn't 18. Any damn lawyer in Texas could file a petition with the court on behalf of the minor and take everything the parents, the dz, and all related parties have claiming everyone was negligent in allowing the minor to participate is a sport that is inherently dangerous. Got the local soccer and little leagues quaking in their boots!

Of course the attorney is doing it simply to protect the minor (or the minor's estate) and would never take a fee % for such good work.

Blue skies,

Jim

[staceyg 0]

Hi Jeff!

I'm sure you know who LawnDart21 is. Look at the little picture in his profile. If you still don't recognize him, I'll be happy to introduce you. He, and his wife, are most definitely people worth knowing. :-)

You are absolutely correct that a sub-18 year old can declare the waiver null and void after signing it; even with parental consent. That's why it's non-negotiable. We get this question a lot in Manifest; most people understand the age requirement (and even give a tandem as an 18th birthday present); it's a shame some jerk had to get in LD21's face about it.

Stacey (the manifest bitch)

[Kris 0]

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Kids younger than 16 have flown airplanes...driven tractors, and done most everything else.

If the kid has sufficient knowledge of the sport, and can do it, let him.

You're preaching to the choir, Bill. The Mullins kids are a great example of how well some kids adapt to the sport. However, we live in an extremely litigious society and there are vultures out there looking for their cut of the legal monetary pie.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Jeff.Donohue 0]

I thought that was THAT Tom, but couldn't tell! He didn't put enough information on his bio to know, though, and sunglasses were throwing me off.

In fact, he sat next to me on my Category E-1 jump on Saturday. (He was taking up a tandem...)

[goose491 0]

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Kids younger than 16 have flown airplanes...driven tractors, and done most everything else.

If the kid has sufficient knowledge of the sport, and can do it, let him.

Bill Cole

That being in a pefect world maybe.

But this one is full of evil lawyers. Taking a kid on a tandem is making yourself a sitting duck if anything ever went wrong. I mean, DZO's kids are one thing... but some shmuck who already uses the passive threat of an attourney?... No way man, too risky.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[gemini 0]

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DZO's kids are one thing

Once again, in some states even if the parents gave permission and/or don't want to sue the attorney can petition the courts to file on behalf of the minor and claim the parents are at least partially negligent and sue them too!

Just because if might be your kid may not get you off the hook!

And if you think a lawyer would not take the suit just because you asked him not to, you don't know lawyers!

Blue skies,

Jim

[goose491 0]

Oh I don't disagree. I'm just saying I'd be one whole heck of a lot more apt to taking a DZO's kid on a tandem then some shmo with an attorney.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Beverly 1]

We don't have a minimum age for tandem.
Our youngest has been just under 4 years old and we have done many young un's.

Many kids of ages 6-14 have done jumps.

In fact the young kid that did his first tandem at age 3.5 has since done 2 more and is only 6 now.

We have had no issues with the kids.

I think true friendship is under-rated

Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa

[Jeff.Donohue 0]

Beverly,

South Africa has tse tse flies. The US has [plaintiff's] lawyers.

That's the difference.

[HydroGuy 0]

Screw that guy.

And comparing a DZO kid, or Mullins kid or any DZ kid to some douche bag whos kid wants to do a tandem and brings up lawyer talk in 30 seconds is ridiculous.

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary