Should DZOs Be on the USPA BOD? (Was: [CSpenceFLY] . . . Skyride?)

[skydived19006 4]

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MANY VOTES WERE NOT CAST
several directors chose to not be in the room during voteing and ASC has filed appeal thus USPA holding off pending legal action??

To avoid conflict of interest and more drama - those board members that are DZOs did not vote. It was not a representation of their thoughts on this topic. Imagine what could be said if a DZO did vote to revoke the GM of their competition? That would be just as unethical. I'm glad that they did step out when the votes were casted.

Which leads to the question.Should DZOs be voted onto the board to begin with? That could probably be a new thread.

Maybe we shouldn't vote skydivers to the BOD either for fear of conflict of interest?

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[DrewGPM 0]

I assume this will be split off to a new topic...but it makes sense to have both DZO's and skydivers equally represented on the BOD. Both have interests in the future of the sport. Since there seems to be growing number of them, it also seems that full time staff jumpers should be represented. These folks work hard and have interests that differ from DZO's and up jumpers.

Those three groups can work in a system of check and balances to avoid one group from dominating the decision making process. There are conflict of interest issues all the time, like DZO's voting on group membership revocation. There are plenty of ways to deal with that. I think the DZO's who recused themselves in voting on the SkyRide GM sets a pretty good precedent for how to handle interest conflicts.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Nothing personal ment.I'm just not happy with the way a few things have been done and changes that have been made in OUR sport since I started 7 yrs ago.An example would be the way the coaches rating is being used for 100 jump wonders to get jumps paid for buy students.Flame on

[skydived19006 4]

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Nothing personal ment.I'm just not happy with the way a few things have been done and changes that have been made in OUR sport since I started 7 yrs ago.An example would be the way the coaches rating is being used for 100 jump wonders to get jumps paid for buy students.Flame on

Well this is off topic, but I can't let that one go. When I was a "100 jump wonder" I was jumpmastering, which meant doing everything short of running the FJC. So I would think that i your opinion the Coach rating is an improvement over the old system.

I personally like the fact that we encourage our younger skydivers to start to teach. I'm in Kansas though, so generally someone with 100 jumps has at least a couple years in the sport.

I do agree that there are inevitably conflicts, personally I'd like to see more representation form/for the small (1, 2 Cessna 182/206) DZs (I'm not running!). Seems to me that an awful lot of what USPA does is geared toward the large DZs. To use your example, the Coach rating is honestly useless for an IAD/Static Line DZ. Seems that the whole ISP was geared around AFF, and the "second tier" training methods were simply forced in. That being the case it's hard to encourage people to spend money and work for a useless rating, just so they can proceed on to becoming an Instructor. I doubt that either the large DZ DZOs, or the professional skydivers, would have much concern for us "little guys".

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[ninjaswooper 0]

It seems like the USPA is bordering on becoming a trade organization who gets away with collecting most of its revenues from people who have no interest in it other than to purchase the products (jumps). Those who seem to be left out of the picture are individual fun jumpers and those who make up instructional/video/packing staff.
Honestly, the USPA may well be incapable of addressing the needs of these three separate and sometimes conflicting groups. The DZOs might have more reason to be at the PIA. The USPA should fall back into the hands of jumpers (however lets not forget that we did vote the DZOs into office) and as for the staffers, maybe a union is appropriate.

[AndyMan 7]

A DZO's voice is important to skydiving. End of story.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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Nothing personal ment.I'm just not happy with the way a few things have been done and changes that have been made in OUR sport since I started 7 yrs ago.An example would be the way the coaches rating is being used for 100 jump wonders to get jumps paid for buy students.Flame on

Well this is off topic, but I can't let that one go. When I was a "100 jump wonder" I was jumpmastering, which meant doing everything short of running the FJC. So I would think that i your opinion the Coach rating is an improvement over the old system.

I personally like the fact that we encourage our younger skydivers to start to teach. I'm in Kansas though, so generally someone with 100 jumps has at least a couple years in the sport.

I do agree that there are inevitably conflicts, personally I'd like to see more representation form/for the small (1, 2 Cessna 182/206) DZs (I'm not running!). Seems to me that an awful lot of what USPA does is geared toward the large DZs. To use your example, the Coach rating is honestly useless for an IAD/Static Line DZ. Seems that the whole ISP was geared around AFF, and the "second tier" training methods were simply forced in. That being the case it's hard to encourage people to spend money and work for a useless rating, just so they can proceed on to becoming an Instructor. I doubt that either the large DZ DZOs, or the professional skydivers, would have much concern for us "little guys".

You hit one issue on the head.Time in sport.I would think alot more of someone with 100 jumps and lets say 2 yrs in the sport teaching.I do however know people with coaches ratings that have no business teaching someone to play Monopoly much less teaching anything about skydiving.
Like it or not the student program and the A-licence cards along with the coaches rating have been implemented as to stay in the students pocket as long and as deep as possible.It is my belief that it is costing our sport dearly in the way of lost jumpers.When I started jumping you didn't have to buy someones slot to have people to jump with after you got off of AFF.And if that is not the way it is done where you are,GREAT.But I get around a little and this is what I see,100 jump wonders,in the sport 3 months,unable to teach,getting their jumps paid for by the new people.
In regards to the little guys.You are right.As stated above the programs are geared toward the bottom line and staffing needs at the larger DZs.If you go back and look at when this all started it was I believe when a couple of large DZ owners got elected to the board.
I learned the old way.When you got off of AFF you got to jump with the more experienced jumper and learned to skydive.You didn't have to pay for someone elses jumps for the next 25 jumps.IMO,this is creating a social barrier where as the new jumpers are somewhat seperated from the general population and forced to jump with just a select few.Some of which could care less about anything other than a free skydive.Again,if it's not like this where you are,GREAT.

[skybytch 273]

Continuing off topic...

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I do however know people with coaches ratings that have no business teaching someone to play Monopoly much less teaching anything about skydiving.

The same can be said about some AFF rating holders and some tandem rating holders. Is this a failure of USPA/the ISP or is it more a failure of the course directors who are certifying these individuals?

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When I started jumping you didn't have to buy someones slot to have people to jump with after you got off of AFF.

IIRC the ISP requires three "coach" jumps between graduating from student status and the A license. Assuming the novice gets off student status at 10 jumps and gets the A at 25... I don't see an issue with a novice doing 12 solos. That's 12 jumps in which the novice can work on canopy control, stability, heading control - ie all the things that they have "learned" but could still use practice on.

btw, the requirement for a coach or AFF rating to jump with pre-A license holders can be waived by the S&TA - so if you're good and you want to jump with non-licensed jumpers on your own dime without a coach rating, you can.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

***IIRC the ISP requires three "coach" jumps between graduating from student status and the A license. Assuming the novice gets off student status at 10 jumps and gets the A at 25... I don't see an issue with a novice doing 12 solos. That's 12 jumps in which the novice can work on canopy control, stability, heading control - ie all the things that they have "learned" but could still use practice on.

btw, the requirement for a coach or AFF rating to jump with pre-A license holders can be waived by the S&TA - so if you're good and you want to jump with non-licensed jumpers on your own dime without a coach rating, you can.

pull and flare, lisa



I have no problem requiring coaches jumps,I just don't think that the options should be only coaches jumps or solos.Why not let them jump with experienced jumpers to learn the skills and then with a coach to get the skills signed off.
I realize that the coaches requirement can be waived, but that is not being done so as to protect the finances of the coaches or staff.

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

I had a big problem paying for coach jumps with a coach I never saw in freefall . I an my instructors told him how fast I fell "oh, i can stay with her' NOT!!!! No offense, but I would rather do a solo and have fun than stay 'in the box' and waste a whole freefall waiting for a coach to show up!

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[ninjaswooper 0]

One of the differences between a coach and an experienced jumper who is "good enough" to jump with an unlicensed skydiver is liability/responsibility. Part of a coaches responsibility is to know a proper gear check, know spotting techniques, etc. Part of being just a "fun jumper" is not taking this responsibility (at least not the responsibility of informing anyone else how to do those things).

I know you all scream "how can a 100 jump wonder teach a student anything?" You definitely have a basis for argument, but the coaches rating took the place of the BIC, which was basically the same but didn't require any in air skills. At the same time, who do you want with your student, someone with 175 jumps who wants to teach other skydivers and displays the knowledge required by the coach rating, or someone with 1000 jumps who refuses the responsibilities inherent in teaching? Desire and acceptance of responsibility say a lot.

[HellaMannn 0]

I have been watching this and the other thread in the instructors forum about the coaching requirements. I am currently finishing my requirements to take the coach rating course. I do expect some criticism, but the fact is that I'm not doing it to get paid jumps, in my case I'm getting it so I can work with students from the University Of Georgia club. One of my teammates and I are both working to get it so we can help reduce the amount of money new jumpers are spending. And to respond to you Spence, I understand that more time in the sport is better, but I feel that I could probably be a stronger coach with 100 jumps in 7 months vs. 100 jumps in two years. I make that point because of currency, and in my experience I have learned so much more by simply empyting my wallet and jumping every weekend, instead of going out every couple weeks. I may totally get bombarded by this, but its what I feel. I love to skydive and honestly, I don't care if I get a dime for coached jumps, even if they make me broke....ok thats it for now

Alex
UGA Skydiving Club

[Icon134 0]

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Nothing personal ment.I'm just not happy with the way a few things have been done and changes that have been made in OUR sport since I started 7 yrs ago.An example would be the way the coaches rating is being used for 100 jump wonders to get jumps paid for buy students.Flame on

I reciently got my coaches rating... but I don't imagine/expect I'll be getting my jumps paid for any time soon... I imagine I'll get only a few jumps here and there and then I wouldn't plan on trying to get the jumps paid for considering that isn't why I got it... mostly I got it because I wanted to be able to give my time back to new comers to the sport.

Oh, you probably don't mean people like me though... cause I'm a 200 jump wonder...

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[jlmiracle 7]

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I realize that the coaches requirement can be waived, but that is not being done so as to protect the finances of the coaches or staff.

I see it done all the time.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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I realize that the coaches requirement can be waived, but that is not being done so as to protect the finances of the coaches or staff.

I see it done all the time.

Judy

I don't.Especially at the larger DZs with lots of full time staff.

[Thanatos340 1]

I like the Coaches rating and the course that goes along with it because it does help some one learn HOW to teach.
What I don’t like is people that Charge for Coach jumps. Both DZs I have been at actually do not ALLOW anyone to charge for Coach Jumps. Both had several Coach rated jumpers who enjoyed "Giving back to the sport". Many of these coaches got their rating just so they could do this.
By the time someone finishes AFF, They are out of pocket atleat $1,000 to $1,500 and trying to scrape up the money for a rig.
To expect them to Pay their Slot, The Coaches Slot PLUS something extra is asking way too much. Especially when all these "Coach Rated" jumpers didnt have to do that. When they were coming up, I would be willing to BET some oldtimer probably took them under their wing and jumped with them and didnt charge for their Slot and/or time.

I plan on getting my rating by the end of the year so that I can hopefully "Pay it Forward" when I am qualified.

[bmcd308 0]

I spent a great deal of money and time to get a coach rating. I think I have had three lift tickets purchased by people whom I have coached. It may have been four, but it certainly has not been five.

Explain to me how deep I am in the students' pockets.

Brent

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[skinnyshrek 0]

I spent 150 dollars and 2 lift tickets to get my coach rating to me that's not a lot of money. If your including all the jumps prior to that as getting your coach rating then i don't think that really counts. I got my coach rating just so i can be LEGAL in jumping with none license jumpers and also helping them out.
I have been jumping 11 years. I started at The Ranch NY. I remember people up there like gino, Billy, dick and others with 1000's of jumps not charging anything.. I think that is how it should be. DZ's make enough off the students with their Aff, gear jumps. Why gauge them even further? I don't really think too much of the coach program. After seeing a few people from an old DZ get their rating it makes it a laughing stock.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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I spent a great deal of money and time to get a coach rating. I think I have had three lift tickets purchased by people whom I have coached. It may have been four, but it certainly has not been five.

Explain to me how deep I am in the students' pockets.

Brent

I think you answered your own question.I would have told them to keep the money or tell them to buy some beer for the DZ sometime.It would have ment alot more to the student than the $20 ment to you.
Btw,I have been offered money for jumping with someone and also offered money for video after jumping with a group or someone of AFF.I have told them exactly that.Keep it or buy some beer.

[Greene 0]

Good for you.

SGC

[bob.dino 1]

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I like the Coaches rating and the course that goes along with it because it does help some one learn HOW to teach.
What I don’t like is people that Charge for Coach jumps.

You've just crystallised my thoughts on the matter perfectly.

For the record, in Australia, to become a Relative Work tutor you must have a minimum of 200 jumps, you must be recommended by the CI (~=DZO) and you must pass a written (& potentially practical) test. However, at least at my DZ, the recommended minimum is 400 jumps, almost all of which should be RW (4-way or 8-way) before you think about getting your RW tutor rating.

If I got my RW tutor rating and started teaching novices, I'd make AUD 10 per jump. That's about 0.3 of a lift ticket. Not exactly going to buy me all the drugs and hookers I've been fantasising about now, is it?

I like the idea of Pay It Forward.

[Greene 0]

Oops, my bad. Replied to the wrong post.

Meant to reply to Cspence fly's last post. Did not mean to reply to Cm something

SGC

He is, Spence, Most of the time, right on!
SGC
And good good for him

[bmcd308 0]

>>I spent 150 dollars and 2 lift tickets to get my coach rating to me that's not a lot of money<<

It is not. However, getting the course at my dz required a more significant commitment from the candidates in order to get someone (Bram Clement) there to teach it. Hell, I think the IRM and the fee to the USPA combined were about $150.

I got the rating for the same reasons you did.

I do not charge anything.

A few people have gone and paid my slot.

When I started, the experienced people were very generous with their time and knowledge and helped me out tremendously. I did not even realize how over the top their efforts were until much later.

>>Why gauge them even further?<<

This is really the only place we disagree, and to some extent I even think you agree with me. You have a coach rating, too. How are YOU gouging students? How am I?

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[packerboy 3]

To coach an amatuer athletics team in Canada, you are for the most part a volunteer. If you are a good enough coach to coach a professional team, then you make money.

It should be the same in skydiving, if you just get your coach rating... you volunteer. When you have multiple thousands of jumps in said discipline and are at the top echelon of your given sport and are ready to coach professional competitors, then you start a school and offer the opportunity to learn from the best for a fee.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[bmcd308 0]

>>if you just get your coach rating... you volunteer<<

I do. Who am I gouging?

>>When you have multiple thousands of jumps in said discipline and are at the top echelon of your given sport and are ready to coach professional competitors, then you start a school and offer the opportunity to learn from the best for a fee. <<

Apparently, you think the AFF requirements are too low, as well. Plenty of AFF-I's are not qualified to teach the "professional competitors" that we have in our sport anything.

Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com