RW Using Fatalities as Advertising!

[silvere 0]

first of all before I go on my rampage let me say that the skyhook is badass. from what I have seen and heard it is an incredible innovation. have to say that the credit of the proof goes to those crazy freaks at skydive chicago who cutaway at a couple hundred feet.

with that being said....I just read the below on relative workshops webpage. I can't say that a single statement has entraged me about skydiving in my entire life.

I can't help but feel like Bill is taking the sad stories of three fatalities and turning them into advertisment...FREE SKYHOOK OFFER...."I feel I can do a little something to help avoid such tragedies in the future" Please if you really wanted to save lives then extend that offer indefinately. furthermore, release the patent on it and let other manufactors use the skyhook. I am partial to Mirage, but I would like to have the skyhook on my rig. I am most certianly not going to buy a rig from someone who is hording the technology to save someone's lives to make money!

8.30.05
From Bill Booth - FREE SKYHOOK OFFER
I've never seen anything like it. In the past 3 weeks, there have been three fatalities in the United States alone that the Skyhook could have prevented. (The average number is about three a year.) While there is nothing I can do to alter this sad fact, I feel I can do a little something to help avoid such tragedies in the future.



While the Skyhook is already included free of charge on all our student and tandem equipment, I will extend that offer to all our sport gear ordered before the end of October as well. This option normally retails at $185, so I hope that this offer will help more and more people consider Skyhook on their rigs.



Please take the time to educate yourself about the incredible benefits of the Skyhook - it has been mandatory on our Sigma tandem gear and student gear for over 2 years now, and more and more sport jumpers are also requesting it. View the Skyhook page on this website - there you will see a video of all stages of the Skyhook development (starting from 15 years ago), plus testimonials from customers who have experienced Skyhook saves.



Bill Booth

[PhreeZone 20]

I don't see it that way. Before last year Skyhooks in the field were rare and the last thing that you'd want to do is push technology into the field that has tight tolerances prematurelly. RWS invented the 3 rings and when they first came out with them were the only company offereing them. They eventually licenced the technology out to the rest of the industry once the device was proven to work. There were still issues with 3 rings and they are used on every rig now days. In the 80's thre was the batch of soft rings then into the early 90's there was a string of minirisers failing that all needed to be readdressed with changes to continue working successfully. There are still people out there making risers that are outside the templetes that RWS has for the specs of the 3 ring design but because the design is so tolerent of errors there are no fatalities occuring because of it. RWS has a wonderful invention in the Skyhook but the last thing that should happen is to licence the technology out to companies that might not follow the templetes correctly and then causes a failure of the Skyhook and kills the technology.

History shows there is a long list of inventions that people though were going to change skydiving completely but due to failures or precived issues the invention never caught on. The Catapult on the Reflex, the 2 pin reserves on Racers, and those are just the first two on the tip of my memory. I'd hate to see the Skyhook go the way of the Catapult due to issues outside of RWS's control.

I think that if anyone else wants to have the technology then as a consumer you should either pay for it or pressure the manufactor of your choice into inventing something on their own. Side impact airbags were invented and placed in higher end cars originally then through consumer pressure the companies each came up with their own design to put in their own product lines, but for a while only a few companies that invented the technology had them. If you wanted them at first you had to get one of their cars or go without.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[diverdriver 5]

You know, those "crazy freaks" at SDC happened to be people I called friend. You just lost your audience or any sympathy for the rest of your post from this poster.

I think Bill Booth is an amazing individual and his gear ideas are brilliant. I bought my Skyhook. I'm not bitter that he offers it for free now. Even if it's temporary.

I don't give away my piloting skills for free except occasionally for special things that deserve it. I'd say Bill has a right to charge for the work he does.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[pilotdave 0]

Yeah, just like how he horded the 3-ring release and the throw out pilot chute. What a jerk.

Get real. Car companies used to charge extra for seatbelts. Most still charge extra for side impact airbags and antilock brakes. Developing skydiving equipment isn't cheap.

I believe the skyhook will be an integral part of every rig in the future, just like the 3-ring. But for the time being, it gives RWS a MAJOR competitive advantage. Selling rigs is their business.

Dave

[skybytch 273]

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I am most certianly not going to buy a rig from someone who is hording the technology to save someone's lives to make money!

Airtec has been doing that since the early 90's. Got a Cypres in your rig? Did you get it for free? Of course not. Should Airtec offer Cypres units at no charge simply because an AAD might save a life? Should they have been forced to give away their trade secrets when they were the only (mostly) reliable AAD on the market?

Someone enlighten me, please... when did making a profit on your ideas and hard work become a bad thing???

[NewGuy2005 53]

With 5 jumps, I don't know a great deal about skydiving, but I do know basic economics. Here's the deal: Bill is not "hoarding" the technology, as you put it. He is GETTING PAID for it.

Anyone that innovates to the benefit of the world at large deserves to be well rewarded for the hard work, intellect, and risk involved in said innovation.

If the Skyhook is the life saver that it appears to be, I hope that Bill is richly, and more importantly, conspicuously rewarded. What the sport needs is for the industry to see innovation being rewarded. That would be incentive for the rest of the industry to innovate as well. One of those future innovations might be the next technology that almost eliminates fatalities from the sport.

To quote Adam Smith: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we get our lunch, but from their self interest."

If Bill gives away the Skyhook with the lofty intent of saving lives, the end result would be suppression of future innovation, possibly the biggest innovation the sport has ever seen.

[Kris 0]

Yeah, the hording thing struck me funny as well. God forbid someone should make a profit in skydiving. Many don't understand the razor-thin margins the industry works under.

If he wants to see the Skyhook added to other rigs, maybe he'll pony up the fees for the TSO testing that'll be required to use the Skyhook on a non-RWS rig.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[airtwardo 7]

Ahhh Andy...."Hey's yer Sign"

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Mixoligist 0]

Is there something in the water up in Indiana ?

Thanks for the laugh Andy.

..................................
Better you than me
..................................

[Guest 1010]

I'm kinda of amazed at how much sh*t a guy gets who actually makes innovations in the equipment we use. I'm very grateful that not only has he not just said f*k it, but he continues to post here and share his knowledge and thoughts on matters of skydiving.

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[slotperfect 7]

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with that being said....I just read the below on relative workshops webpage. I can't say that a single statement has entraged me about skydiving in my entire life.

You completely missed the point. Then, instead of communicating directly with Bill Booth to perhaps more clearly understand his motives you chose to bash him here in a public forum. Nice tactics.

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I can't help but feel like Bill is taking the sad stories of three fatalities and turning them into advertisment.

You don't know him at all. He has been a regular and significant contributor to these forums, and a search of his posts will reveal contributions like this one.

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I am most certianly not going to buy a rig from someone who is hording the technology to save someone's lives to make money!

So everyone who invents new technology should just give it away to the world? Is there something wrong with businesses making money?

Appreciate the Skyhook for the incredible innovation that it is. Appreciate Bill Booth for his innovative mind, and his huge contributions to the safety of our sport he has already given away (3-ring and hand-deploy). Don't bash him for keeping a couple of his inventions to himself so his company makes a profit.

Arrive Safely

John

[rehmwa 2]

Thanks to Bill Booth and his contributions (personal and equipment inventions) to this sport. That goes to all our gear manufacturers - this is a very small and personal industry and none of them would survive if they didn't have the welfare of their customers foremost.

Bashing any small businessman in this country is a terribly petty thing to do - considering the risk they take each and every day. Bashing someone who's made a point to make everyone's life a bit safer and more fun as an integral part of his business is even more sad. I suspect you'd just as soon they be put out of business because you don't get your freebies - then who would want to invent the next greatest thing in our sport?

Without the -well deserved reward- of innovation, we'd still be jumping off of rooftops holding onto sheets.

Everybody wants their freebies at the cost of the rest of us - sad.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JohnMitchell 16]

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History shows there is a long list of inventions that people though were going to change skydiving completely but due to failures or precived issues the invention never caught on. The Catapult on the Reflex, the 2 pin reserves on Racers,

.

What was wrong with the 2 pin reserves on Racers? May not have been too compatible with later AAD designs, but what else?

[davelepka 4]

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FREE SKYHOOK OFFER...."I feel I can do a little something to help avoid such tragedies in the future" Please if you really wanted to save lives then extend that offer indefinately.

First off, who bears the cost of this indefinite offer? RWS is out of pocket for the components and time they put into every free Skyhook they will give away. Can this go on forever?

How about this, make the Skyhook standard on every V3, and raise the base price accordingly. If you want to delete the option, so be it, but sorry, no discount. This should pacify any (inappropriate comment removed by slotperfect) who has a problem with the current arrangement.

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release the patent on it and let other manufactors use the skyhook. I am partial to Mirage, but I would like to have the skyhook on my rig.

Why are you partial to Mirage? Is it becasue they have features individual to Mirage that you feel are superior to other rigs? By your logic then, Mirage should share these features with other manufacturers so all rigs are equal.

I'm sure that the Mirage people think that their pin protection, harness construction, and reserve system are the best and safest around, yet you don't chastise them for not offering that technology for use on other rigs.

I'm glad that after two years, you're ready to drop the hammer on a guy who has been building rigs and revolutionizing the equipment for ten times longer than you have been jumping.

Big picture pal, big picture. Take a look at it.

[bmcd308 0]

>>You know, those "crazy freaks" at SDC happened to be people I called friend. <<

DD - They may be your friends, but you have to admit that was a stunt. And any time someone does a stunt, others are going to call them crazy freaks.

OP - I think you are taking Booth's offer the wrong way. I believe him to be sincere.

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[diverdriver 5]

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>>You know, those "crazy freaks" at SDC happened to be people I called friend. <<

DD - They may be your friends, but you have to admit that was a stunt. And any time someone does a stunt, others are going to call them crazy freaks.

OP - I think you are taking Booth's offer the wrong way. I believe him to be sincere.

Ok, maybe I'm unfamiliar with which stunt he's talking about. I'm refering to the two low cutaways by normal jumpers during normal operations. One happened about 4.5 years ago and the next 4 years ago (Muskrat and Ali). Both cutaway about 200-500 feet. A Skyhook very likely (not guaranteed) would have changed the outcome of those situations.

Is there another "stunt" that I missed?


edit to publicly apologise: Aparently I have completely misread Silvre's first post. After rereading it is seems there was some sort of test jump to prove the Skyhook's operation at low altitudes. Is that correct now? Silvre, I apologise for jumping your shit. My first thoughts went to my friends who died and who could have benefited from a Skyhook.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Tonto 1]

I really, really wish you were around when we drooled over the inovation of shot and a half capewells after using 2 shot.

All I can hope is that you have no idea of what or who you're talking about. I also like my Mirages, but when I look at them, I understand it only looks the way it does and works the way it does because of Bill Booth.

The truth is - those 3 fatals were caused because the jumpers failed to ensure that they had a landable canopy above their heads prior to landing. That may seem harsh, but whenever safer equipment has been released - jumpers have used it to push their margins a little lower. The old "I need an AAD to go on THAT skydive" is proof of that school of thought, akin to "If I'm going to skick my head in a blender, I'll wear a helmet."

Here's a trick. Don't stick your head in the blender.

If some guy invents a blender proof helmet, encourage all those who stick their heads in blenders to use it.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[RogerRamjet 0]

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>>You know, those "crazy freaks" at SDC happened to be people I called friend. <<

DD - They may be your friends, but you have to admit that was a stunt. And any time someone does a stunt, others are going to call them crazy freaks.

OP - I think you are taking Booth's offer the wrong way. I believe him to be sincere.

I couldn't agree more! I worked for Bill (building the first 100+ Wonderhogs), worked for the competition (Bill Buchman's Eagle rigs), and worked as the competition building my own rigs. I knew (and know) Bill through all of that and he has always been GENUINE and SINCERE.

The facts that he is still at it after more than 30 years and spends some of his time hanging out on these forums sharing his insights speaks volumes about what kind of man Bill is...

-----------------------
Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[PhreeZone 20]

AAD compatability is about it. Racers are so different from the rest of sport rigs they are chock full of one offs. The larger hard housings for the reserve cables, the pins on the back, the red teflon cables, etc.

We are luckly that some inventions have been freely distributed among the manufactors such as hard housings in risers, soft links, etc.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[JohnMitchell 16]

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[I couldn't agree more! I worked for Bill (building the first 100+ Wonderhogs), worked for the competition (Bill Buchman's Eagle rigs), and worked as the competition building my own rigs.

I had one of those rigs, not even a 3 ring yet, just tapewells. It was my first pig rig.
Bill has come up with about 90% of the innovations in rigs the last 30 years. I hope he keeps inventing for a long, long time. I also hope he licenses skyhook out to others. I'd love to have one on my next Infinity. In the meantime, I'll enjoy my tandems done on Sigmas.

Hey Bill, how about updating the Tandem waiver tape for this century?

Thanks, John

[RogerRamjet 0]

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[I couldn't agree more! I worked for Bill (building the first 100+ Wonderhogs), worked for the competition (Bill Buchman's Eagle rigs), and worked as the competition building my own rigs.

I had one of those rigs, not even a 3 ring yet, just tapewells. It was my first pig rig.
Bill has come up with about 90% of the innovations in rigs the last 30 years. I hope he keeps inventing for a long, long time. I also hope he licenses skyhook out to others. I'd love to have one on my next Infinity. In the meantime, I'll enjoy my tandems done on Sigmas.

Hey Bill, how about updating the Tandem waiver tape for this century?

Thanks, John

Yeah, I put One-Shots on mine. How early in the run were you, did you have plastic ripcords, hand deploy?

-----------------------
Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[silvere 0]

Wow, did I ever open Pandora’s Box.

Let me start with diverdriver. Two guys at SDC were doing demos for the skyhook and cut away around 200ft (packed with the slider down) One of the guys that did it was telling me the story. He said there’s a video somewhere. Anyways, I didn’t mean crazy freaks in a bad way at all. And I would never talk about anyone that went in like that.

PhreeZone - “I think that if anyone else wants to have the technology then as a consumer you should either pay for it or pressure the manufacture of your choice into inventing something on their own.” You are absolutely correct. I didn’t clarify myself well enough. When I said that should release the patent I was thinking more in the direction of leasing it out or whatever. I certainly don’t think that they shouldn’t get paid for their hard work and good innovations.

Slotperfect – you are right, I don’t know Bill and I’m not trying to bash him…his statement just really rubbed me the wrong way. I might have been a bit too harsh with my comments, but I pretty upset after reading that.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Let me start with diverdriver. Two guys at SDC were doing demos for the skyhook and cut away around 200ft (packed with the slider down) One of the guys that did it was telling me the story.

I can tell you the event you are talking about happened on the east coast. NOT at Skydive Chicago. Yes, there is video of the event as I know the person who shot it. Let me repeat that again - it happened at a DZ on the East Coast. Please - before you start tossing out insults at a DZ and the jumpers there (esp my friends), get your facts in line. If I am not mistaken you can do a search and find pics of it on this website somewhere.

Also, if you knew Bill Booth or even spent an hour talking with him you would understand the passion this man has for safety. He has changed and increased safety on the sport side and the tandem side of our industry more than you will ever know. He has GIVEN away some of his inventions just to help out jumpers (the instructions for the BOC PC and the three ring system can be found by anyone on their website) - which has helped increase the safety and sales for his competition. What is wrong with finally keeping something he invented in house? Skydiving gear is all he does - he does have a family to feed, what's wrong with increasing business?

This is what the RW offer means to me - there have been senseless, avoidable deaths over the course of this season. This is not a one time event as we have people jumping that get in over their head and do not follow emergency procedures. This device MAY help you live if you end up in that spot. A lot of people choose not to get the skyhook due to cost - therefore it's free if you order a rig from RW. I see nothing wrong with this.

As other have pointed out, AAD companies have long used 'death' as a selling point - so do companies that market reserves. Death happens in this sport and we talk about it a lot. We talk about it in ways that make most people uncomfortable. If you can't handle that.....well....

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[silvere 0]

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"I can tell you the event you are talking about happened on the east coast. NOT at Skydive Chicago. Yes, there is video of the event as I know the person who shot it. Let me repeat that again - it happened at a DZ on the East Coast. Please - before you start tossing out insults at a DZ and the jumpers there (esp my friends), get your facts in line. If I am not mistaken you can do a search and find pics of it on this website somewhere."

I was not insulting anybody or any dz. I think that it's cool that they were testing it out. they made plenty of jumps up high to determine how low they could cut away. now, my facts are in line. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=445306;search_string=skyhook%20chicago;#445306 I'm not sure if this is the weekend that it took place, but I do know it was at SDC. I'm sure that they did one on the east coast, but they did one at SDC as well. I've seen some video of a demo, but it wasn't the same one.

not sure why you guys are thinking that I'm insulting anyone for the demo

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Those were planned cutaways, and they were not done low. Well, most were done as Hop N Pops from the otter and no one took them low (speaking to the event in 2003 since I was there for it). The main was a Stiletto 97 often referred to as Pinky. Anyone that has been at SDC over the years knows about Pinky as Roger had quite a few mals on it. Pinky was chosen as the main because no one cared if it happen to get lost....and on one jump, I think done by Kirk or Woody, Pinky revereted to her old ways and spun up quick. A good portion of those jumps were done with someone from SkyCam flying video so they could catch the Skyhook in action. From my understanding, and from what I saw, all jumpers were under their reserves by 2000 feet. With people like Kirk, Kallend, Woody or Paul D out there, it would be easy for them to figure out from video the theoretical lowest alti someone could chop from. I promise you that with the rash of bad luck we had out there, no one takes low chops lightly at SDC. We lost too many friends over the last few years.

The very low cutaway with a skyhook with slider packed down was done out east. A big deal was made about it because a rigger was the one that packed the slider down. When I say this was done low, we are talking about a reserve ride of only a few seconds. HERE is the thread on it:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1139102;search_string=skyhook%20crosskeys;guest=15520014#1139102

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not sure why you guys are thinking that I'm insulting anyone for the demo

Because claiming that a dz allowed and tested for very low cutaways is a serious accusation that could have a negative impact. Claiming something like this is enough to get the USPA out there, and possibly the FAA since the slider on a reserve would have been packed down. This means that a rigger didn't pack according to the regs which in turn could cost them their ticket. Or the pilot could get in trouble for allowing a jumper on the plane with a rig that didn't have a FAA seal on the reserve. Be very careful in what you claim.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....