Private Pilot Flying Jump Plane?

[Ron 10]

I have flown a jump plane for skydiving...ALL of the people on the plane were instructors and NO ONE paid for the lift....

It was a last load of the day jump for the regular pilot and the instructors and the DZO to have some fun.

I flew since I was a rated pilot with a HP checkout, and I had been jumping all day.

As for as I knew...Or cared for that matter it was legal since no one was being paid for the flight...In fact the DZO just ate the cost of the flight to reward his staff.

That COULD be taken as compensation...Just as the flight time I got could be...But if the FAA wants to come after me for that, they are wasting my tax dollars.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tombuch 0]

Quote

That's such strange wording (no surprise coming from the FAA). I mean, the purpose of the flight would be to get up high so the jumper can leave the plane safely. The only time the passengers and pilot don't have a common purpose in the flight is a hijacking.
Dave

Nope. The purpose of the flight for the jumpers is to get to altitude and make a jump. The purpose of the flight for the pilot is to build flight time. That is not a common purpose.

A good example of a common purpose is when two friends fly from one airport to another to buy lunch together, or when several friends fly to look at the landscape.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

Nope. The purpose of the flight for the jumpers is to get to altitude and make a jump. The purpose of the flight for the pilot is to build flight time. That is not a common purpose.

I wasn't serious but I'll still disagree with ya for the hell of it. I know the FAA sees it your way though. But not all pilots are flying to build time. The purpose of the flight for the pilot might be to get the jumpers into the air so they can jump. The purpose to the jumpers is to get into the air so they can jump. Just because they have different responsibilities during the flight doesn't mean they are there for different reasons. Well, in my opinion, not the FAA's. I mean what the heck do I care if some private pilot is sharing the cost to take his skydiver buddy up for a jump? It's a different story when a dropzone is using a private pilot to carry paying jumpers.

Dave

[lug 4]

A private pilot who is building time or just flying a single load for a DZ, like you have described, is defiantly a gray area that some people feel can be stretched to there benefited. I know pilots who were not paid to fly jumpers but were compensated by being allowed to fly so they could build time. This was described by them, to me, as breaking FAR part 61. It can be viewed that the private pilot was being compensated by the free use of the aircraft and of course airplanes do have an operating cost.

There is another issue that nobody has brought up, and that is how about the aircrafts insurance carrier. Most insurance carriers require that the pilot fly the jump ship is commercial rated, has the proper rating for the aircraft, and meets a minimum hour requirement for the aircraft type.

“I am tired of the private pilots who do two things, one only read the AIM/FAR enough to pass the written exam and never open the book again, and two, even bigger, never look at a sectional when flying and end up flying right over and an active drop zones.”

Memento Mori

[mjosparky 4]

Getting back to the original post. If the DZO as described was flying jumpers with a just a private lic. you can bet it was illegal.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[pilotdave 0]

Yeah I think the insurance requirements are what usually set the minimum pilot qualifications, not the FARs or the DZO. But when the DZO allows an unapproved pilot to break the insurance requirements, he's at least putting his own ass on the line, not someone elses.

Dave

[tombuch 0]

Quote

Yeah I think the insurance requirements are what usually set the minimum pilot qualifications, not the FARs or the DZO.

You are assuming the airplane is insured. Many are not, and that is especially true of Cessna jump ships.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[EDYDO 0]

How do you explain this post?

Ed

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1032307#1032307

Quote

Never been in one of JE classes. Never Jumped with him. Only know him by he rep. which is a good one in Arkansas even though he is in Missouri. I know two guys who went through his courses which are hard but fare. Unlike some others I know who are a cake walk.

So again, don't think so much. You make yourself look silly when you do.

• Quote

[EDYDO 0]

Quote

A good example of a common purpose is when two friends fly from one airport to another to buy lunch together, or when several friends fly to look at the landscape.

I have been trying to research "common purpose" as related to this thread and am not having much luck. Can anyone steer me toward the legal basis for this concept? Is it nothing more than bench law set in Garvey V Rawlins? That case was clearly a commercial operation using the "club" as a shield.

Ed

[tombuch 0]

Quote

I have been trying to research "common purpose" as related to this thread and am not having much luck. Can anyone steer me toward the legal basis for this concept? Is it nothing more than bench law set in Garvey V Rawlins?

See a report in AOPA magazine at: http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/article.cfm?article=1467

It's a good read about the distinctions between commercial and noncommercial operations and includes the following related to private pilots flying jumpers:

Quote

...If a private pilot is going to fly with passengers and share the expenses, the pilot must make the flight for his or her own purposes. If the pilot's only purpose in making the flight is to transport the passengers, then the FAA takes the position that the flight is in violation of 61.118. The fact that the pilot does not make a profit on the flight is considered irrelevant. (Administrator v. Rountree, 2 NTSB 1712 (1975)).

A private pilot cannot offer below-cost transportation in order to build flying time. In Administrator v. Reimer, 3 NTSB 2306 (1981), a private pilot charged parachutists $8.50 each, believing that he was simply sharing the expenses of the flight. The National Transportation Safety Board found that there was no "common purpose" to the parachute flights because the purpose of the pilot was to build flight time, while the purpose of the passengers was to skydive. The pilot's certificate was suspended for 90 days....

...The FAA's position on sharing expenses is not supported by the language of 61.118(b), but pilots need to be aware of the FAA's policy. Current FAA enforcement policy is so strict that if a private pilot ferries an airplane at no charge, with no passengers on board, the FAA position is that the free flying time is compensation for the private pilot, and therefore a violation of 61.118....

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[EDYDO 0]

Good information, Tom. Thanks for whatever time it took you to find and post it.

I can easily see their position when a private pilot flies paying jumpers. That's really no different from putting a private pilot in the seat of an airliner and saying that it is legal because he is not being paid. Even a set fee of only $8.50 sounds commercial to me.

Much of the rest of their position sounds a lot like bureaucratic bullying. They can get away with it only if we let them. It is a pretty big stretch for them to conclude that every private pilot is trying to build hours.

I live in an area with small private airports where there are pilots who sit around in the afternoon and chew the fat. A parachute jump is sometimes a part of the fun. Just, put out a notam, find a pilot/plane and go. Everyone enjoys it. In my view, that is a common purpose. In these cases, I never pay anything.

I have learned from experience that Federal employees have almost complete immunity from personal responsibility if they are following the regulations. If however, they start adding or changing the law/regulation, they can be held personally responsible and they are quite hesitant to pursue a questionable position once they realize you know that.

Ed

[tbjuggle 0]

I just thought of a question:

Does anyone know what can happen to the DZ, the DZO, or the jumpers if a private pilot is found in violation? Who can the FAA fine for this? Is it only the pilot that is at risk? Any history?

I am curious to see if I need to ask pilots to see their commerical license!

• Quote

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

I just thought of a question:

Does anyone know what can happen to the DZ, the DZO, or the jumpers if a private pilot is found in violation? Who can the FAA fine for this? Is it only the pilot that is at risk? Any history?

I am curious to see if I need to ask pilots to see their commerical license!

If the DZO is the aircraft owner too it is possible that the FAA could levy a civil fine. Now, whether it would stick is another question. But with the FAA you are guilty until proven innocent. So be prepared to defend yourself in court. Why go there? Just get a commercial ticket. It took me 3 weeks to finish the course.

I'd be more concerned about what specific jump pilot training they received before flying loads. What are they going to do if they see a premature deployment on the step? What will they do at 1,500 AGL when the engine sputters and the jumpers all try to get out. What is your 200 hour PP going to do then? If he didn't brief his pax before hand they might just make up their own procedure.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I jumped at a club in Nelson NZ many years ago. We paid for our jumps by the minute. After the plane landed we found out how much the jump cost. On one jump we were held by ATC for an incoming Sched so we each had to pay two bucks more (if I recall correctly the plane kept climbing).
I think this could work in the US as long as there were no students in the plane. If you have members of the "unsuspecting public" on board the FAA would and should rule that they have a right to presume a commercial pilot for what is clearly a commercial flight

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

I jumped at a club in Nelson NZ many years ago. We paid for our jumps by the minute. After the plane landed we found out how much the jump cost. On one jump we were held by ATC for an incoming Sched so we each had to pay two bucks more (if I recall correctly the plane kept climbing).
I think this could work in the US as long as there were no students in the plane. If you have members of the "unsuspecting public" on board the FAA would and should rule that they have a right to presume a commercial pilot for what is clearly a commercial flight

It doesn't matter how you pay, it the fact that you pay that requires the pilot be Comm. rated.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[tombuch 0]

Quote

Who can the FAA fine for this? Is it only the pilot that is at risk? Any history?

Everybody is at risk, including the pilot, jumper, business owner, and just about any other party involved in the operation. See Article 13 (FAA Regulations Applied) at http://ranchskydive.com/safety/index.htm

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[sducoach 0]

Ed,

If it makes you feel any better, I don't know who he is or anyone in Arkansas who whent through one of my courses in KC.

However, what's that got to do with the post? Still looking for some revenge or something? Try PM'ing me if you need anything, If you are just lurking then don't bother.

So, you being a commercial pilot don't need to worry about private pilots flying jumpers, do you?

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[sducoach 0]

Tom,

Great info. Heck, even Ed and I agree on that! I received a call requesting the same information. Send a bill for the research

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[EDYDO 0]

Quote

Ed,

If it makes you feel any better, I don't know who he is or anyone in Arkansas who whent through one of my courses in KC.
clip

So, you being a commercial pilot don't need to worry about private pilots flying jumpers, do you?

Blues,

J.E.

JE, Did you read his posts, nothing makes any sense. In one post you are his instructor skygod and in another he doesn't know you??? I don't know what I might need revenge for and I am much too busy to "lurk".

I am passionate about government and it's role in skydiving. If that bothers some people then so be it.

Yep, I have a commercial, but I will not hesitate to ride with a Private Pilot under the right circumstances. Heck, if I wasn't the only pilot at at the DZ many years ago, I might have almost as many jumps as you.

Ed

[stevebabin 0]

Ed,
The original poster is not using his real name in his profile. I jump in the area and would recognise him if he used his own name. If you read his posts, he obviously has a a score to settle with this DZO and has chosen these forums to launch his anonymous attacks. Until he starts using his real name, I'd take anything he says with a grain of salt....
FWIW,
Steve Babin

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[JohnPolk 0]

i'm a pilot and i started flying jumpers with 150 hrs and a ppl. it didnt take long for me to put in the next 100 hrs for a commercial, but if i would have paid for the hours it would have taken significantly longer. I got my commercial asap, and the examiner did give me a little crap about it all.
it was an oppertunity that i was thankful to get.

[EDYDO 0]

Quote

Ed,
The original poster is not using his real name in his profile. I jump in the area and would recognise him if he used his own name. If you read his posts, he obviously has a a score to settle with this DZO and has chosen these forums to launch his anonymous attacks. Until he starts using his real name, I'd take anything he says with a grain of salt....
FWIW,
Steve Babin

Steve, Thanks for the info. I'm sorry about the vendetta. We surely don't need to hurt our DZO's if we want to continue to have a place to easily skydive. Heck, no one can run a business without pi**ing someone off occasionally.

I do welcome the opportunity to see the regs brought out in the forum. I wish I could see more positive info. For example, there are times a private pilot can fly jumpers and that seems to stay in the background.

Ed

[sducoach 0]

Ed,

PM'd you and this guy. I don't believe it's who I though it was so he's probably the lurker. I've received a PM from him so let's just cut him off right here.

As far as being the only pilot at the DZ you will not receive any sympathy from me, only beer to keep you flying. Remind me to tell you how I received the nickname "sputter" some day.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

Quote

Ed,
The original poster is not using his real name in his profile. I jump in the area and would recognise him if he used his own name. If you read his posts, he obviously has a a score to settle with this DZO and has chosen these forums to launch his anonymous attacks. Until he starts using his real name, I'd take anything he says with a grain of salt....
FWIW,
Steve Babin

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Quit picking on the poor DZO.

The poor guy was probably up to his ass in alligators. Chances are he knows exactly what the regulations say, but was short a pilot for the day. Rather than ground all the skydivers, he took a calculated risk and everybody lived. He is probably not proud of his actions and definitely does not want the feds to know about it ...
Yes some DZOs are dickheads. It is impossible to baby sit prima donna skydivers without hurting a few feelings. One DZO that I worked for long, long ago and far, far away is having his day in court. The best thing I can do - for the sport - is KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT.

All that being said, I flew jumpers with only a private pilot license. That was back in the 1980s when Transport Canada said it was okay for private pilots to fly jumpers. I think it was CSPA that insisted on the minimum 100 hours experience. My learning curve was pretty steep during my first few hours flying jumpers, but the point is that I learned and they all jumped safely. All flying careers have to start somewhere.

• Quote

[Beerlight 0]

I'll wade in these waters I guess.

I flew jumpers as a private pilot.

This was back in the 80's/early 90's. Before starting, I actually called the local FSDO to inquire if this was legal and they said, "yep, as long as your NOT earning money, no problem."

So, with that being said, I started flying jumpers (C-182) with a grand total of 90 hours in my logbook. And had an engine failure on my SECOND LOAD @ 5,000 feet in the descent. (Matter of fact, that C-182, N5827B is flying somewhere up in Washington state) Can a private pilot with 91 hours handle an emergency?, you bet. I deadsticked it back on the DZ, no problems. (FYI, it was a "fuel flow" problem, not fuel exhaustion.

Today the FAA views that as illegal. But, I logged over 1000 hours flying jumpers as a private pilot. Best shit I ever did. Fun, exciting, and learned a ton about short field, high density altitude takeoffs and life. But, that was a different era and a different mindset at our DZ. Things and times do change.....

Buck