What do jump numbers really mean?

[scrublink 0]

I keep seeing posts in various forums that relate jump numbers to experience. While they are a good indicator of experience they are not the end all determining factor.

When I started in the sport a S/L Jumpmaster usually only got in one (maybe two) jump(s) on a day that he taught first jump course. If you had three students or less you did them in one load and got your "free" jump from 2800 feet or so. If you had more than a plane load and were pressed for daylight you rode the plan down. Not very many people had multiple rigs then so you didn't want to take time to pack before taking up the rest of the students.
The guys that did this were very knowlegeable about the sport and most were very good instructors. Everyone had to do practice PLF's until the whole class had them down. Safety and quality of instruction were as high as could be made at the time. Some of these guys had a little over a hundred jumps, but when you're making one to four a weekend it takes a while to add up.
Everyone ( and I mean this literally) stayed for after dark cocktails and Hangar Flying sessions. It took near a family emergency for people to leave. You spent the entire weekend at the DZ and sort of soaked up information from the old-timers. After you figured out who to believe and who was full of shit you could learn a lot just by sitting there. In front of the fire there were no egos just a bunch of jumpers.

Jumpers, not skydivers.

The reason I write about this little history lesson is thus:
We seem to have a great big hard-on for jump numbers. What about time in grade. While the new technology is great and people can make ten or more jumps a day, what are they really learning. As with anything else there are people that are exceptions, but I don't think you learn as much making 1000 jumps in a year as you do making 1000 in four years.

I see people that come to the DZ as if it was a doctors office. "I have to get five jumps in before two." They schedule and plan like it was an appointment. This is supposed to be fun. These people that you are flying with are your family. We enjoy your company (except maybe for that guy sitting over in the corner).

Maybe I am a little biased in my feelings. I have never been really good with a logbook of any kind. I just sort of log what I remember. Sometimes a few months after it happened. Pro-tracks only work if you remeber to carry them.

Sorry for the rant. As you can tell I think we need more jumpers and less skydivers. A jumper is passionate. A skydiver just happens to jump out of airplanes.

[EvilLurker 2]

I've often wondered just how much you learn making 500 jumps in a summer as a member of a 4-way team where the sequence is "dirt dive, jump, pack, debrief, repeat".
You learn a lot about RW, admitted, and you've probably got some good tracking and canopy control skills. Other than that, you're a very limited skydiver.
That's why when someone unknown makes the statement "I have X number more jumps than you, so I have extensive knowledge", I take it with a grain of salt. Any of us could go live at the DZ and pump out a couple thousand solo hop n' pops without learning much of value relating to the sport, if we were so inclined. Jump numbers, by themselves, are of little value. Being involved in the sport, having a variety of jumps, and asking questions and finding the answers are a lot more valuable, I've found.

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When I started in the sport a S/L Jumpmaster usually only got in one (maybe two) jump(s) on a day that he taught first jump course.

Exactly what I saw, some of the guys with 500 jumps were very "experienced", and the best guys to jump with/learn from I met, including jumpers with 2000+ jumps that were in it for themselves only.

And no, I am not saying EVERYONE with high jump numbers falls into this category, but a fair number do.

[Brian1 0]

I was glad to read your comments I just started jumping. I am jumping at a very small DZ and I'm in a S/L progression with a bunch of military guys from the 60's and 70's no ego's just good ol' boys. Sometimes I wonder am I making the right decision to train here then I read a post like yours and it takes me back to some DZ's where it's all about the look and not the sister and brotherhood, and again these comments DON'T apply to everyone or all DZ's. I just love going and sitting around with some bar-b-que talking and making jumps with people where it's not about money or ego's.

[scrublink 0]

You, son are jumping at the very DZ where I earned my Jumpmaster rating. These are the finest people on the planet IMO. No BS, shoot from the hip. The DZO is one of the best people in the sport. He didn't like the container my SO was jumping so he sent her one. Asked if he could get me water gear at a reasonable price and he shipped some the next day. Wouldn't take a dime from us for either piece of equipment.
While I was there I was treated like family and given every encouragement to further my training and jumping activities.

You will definitely be learning in an "old school" atmosphere. Listen to what the good 'ol boys say and you too will have a long skydiving career.

[firstime 0]

it;s not how many you have but how many you have left

[Sneakerz 0]

I think there are a couple sides to that point you brought up. I dont have that many jumps but I have been flying for about 10 years and I went to college for it, I am seeing a quite a few parallels between flying and skydiving.
FIrst in flying, the more you fly and the more often you fly, the better. Now in flying, in training, you are tought to use checklists which pretty much force emerg. procedures upon you everytime. And not only that, just getting off the ground helps you "keep the feel" for the plane. Not too nig of a deal when everthings working, but it can save your butt with a critical engine failure on take-off, fully loaded, with a high density altitude.
That being said, I think the same for skydiving CAN be the same if you treat it the same way. I thinking jumping more can be beneficial if you make at least a mental checklist that you do everytime. Do your EP's once on the ground after gear up, once just before you are on the plane, and once before exit. There are many things you could add to that, but thats the general idea.

SAFE JUMPIN

---------------
"Once you find a job that you like, you never have to work another day in your life"

[DanglesOZQld 0]

I know exactly what you are saying and you are correct. Jump numbers do mean, in most cases, jack shite. CURRENCY is the biggest thing that dictates experience I believe and even then there are plenty of "drogue chuckers" who have heaps of jumps but no experience in belly to earth or other stuff other than being the frontal meatbomb tourist guide.

I am one of those by the way so am in no way trying to demean the job tm's do but you still have to do other jumps besides those that pay the bills.

I have nearly 4,000 jumps but could not for the life of me go head down or do much in the way of freestyle. I do like to think that I can still easily dock onto an 18 way last no problem.

It amazed me about two years ago at a fun boogie how BADLY guys with 5,000 plus jumps did when confronted with a small group of people in freefall!!!

BSBD!! -Mark.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[MB38 0]

While I agree with the first poster, I believe that there is an undeniable vague jump number representation of skill. Somebody with <20 jumps has a different skill set than somebody with 100. Somebody with 100 has a different set than somebody with 500, 1,000, 2,000... 15,000.

If you're vague, sure. Does somebody with 750 jumps have a better skill set than somebody with 650? Can't say.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[kallend 2,026]

There's only so much you can learn in any one jump. So the more jumps you make the more potential you have for learning. Not everyone lives up to their potential, of course.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RossDagley 0]

Other things also can play a role in this - someone with tunnel time and low(er) jump numbers can have an acceptable level of freefall skills whilst having poor(er) canopy skills (for example).

I know a chap just like this

[Ron 10]

Jump numbers mean that you have done something X number of times.

That can mean a lot or nothing.

I have a few jumps. Most are RW, and most are 4way. That means that I can do 4way pretty well. My Freefly really sucks however. Some guy with 400 total jumps and 350 are Freefly will fly circles around me.

I may have 3600 jumps, but Kallend has more Bigway jumps than me...So I would bet he is better at bigways than me.

I have an AFF rating and a Tandem rating. I bet some guy with 2000 total jumps, but 1500 tandems is better than me doing tandems.

So jump numbers DO mean something. It means that the peroson has survived X number of times.

The problem is when people treat that like the only measurement.

I know a guy that came out started jumping like crazy and got 300 jumps in a year. He was looking to buy a new main and found one pretty cheap. It was a ZP 9 cell with maybe 100 jumps on it for 300.00 bucks. What a deal right? His circle of friends all thought it was a great deal. Most of them had around 1,000 jumps but only in the last 5 years or so. They were current and quite skilled.

They came and asked me what I thought. When I heard the name of the canopy I told him to stay away. The canopy was a Nova. If you don't know WHY I told him to stay away, find some old timer at the DZ this weekend, buy him a beer and ask him to tell you about it.

So just because you may be current, just because you might be a really good flier. None of that means any more than what it means.

However if I had to bet on someone to make a safe jump...I'd bet on the guy with the most jumps everyday. If I had to make a guess on overall skill based on paper alone, the guy with the most jumps will win. The guy that has been ACTIVE in the sport the longest will win if I have to guess who knows more.

So Number of jumps = skill
Number of ACTIVE years = knowledge.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[davelepka 4]

You're forgetting about the context that jumps are being made in. When you started jumping, the 'state of the art' was lower, i.e. canopies were slower, freeflying didn't exist, more smaller planes were in use (as in, smaller average size of RW groups).

In order to perofrm at the level that the average weekend warrior desires, it takes more jumps than it used to. People want to do maore with their skydives, and it takes experience to be ready for that.

It still takes hanging out at the DZ all weekend, socializing with the other jumpers, and dedicating yourself to reaching your goals. That part hasn't changed at all (and too many jumpers try to skip that step), but the end result of that effort has changed.

[LawnDart21 0]

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After you figured out who to believe and who was full of shit you could learn a lot just by sitting there.

That is one of the best things I have read on this board.

Having been on both sides, who to believe, and at times, full of shit, I am still laughing at that quote ten minutes later.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[outlawphx 1]

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The canopy was a Nova. If you don't know WHY I told him to stay away, find some old timer at the DZ this weekend, buy him a beer and ask him to tell you about it.

Hey, I put 100 jumps on my Nova, and it never did anything bad to me

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So Number of jumps = skill
Number of ACTIVE years = knowledge.

That's the best description I've heard.

[riggerrob 643]

Good point about currency.
I need at least 50 jumps per year to feel current and comfortable in the air.

[riggerrob 643]

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I've often wondered just how much you learn making 500 jumps in a summer as a member of a 4-way team where the sequence is "dirt dive, jump, pack, debrief, repeat".
You learn a lot about RW, admitted, and you've probably got some good tracking and canopy control skills.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hah!
Doing 4-way can become very limiting ... if you let it.
Back when I worked in Perris Valley (1995 to 2001) it amazed me how many bellytive workers couldn't out-track a desert tortoise.
Oh! And all those self-proclaimed "Stiletto pilots" who only knew left turn, right turn and flare. .... and wondered why their buddies hook-turned themselves into the hospital on a regular basis.

Thousands of 4-way dives will not teach you anything about canopy control.
Curiousity will teach you about canopy control.

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[AlexCrowley 0]

How well does this old saw fit?

"He/she doesnt have X jumps, merely 1 jump X times".

Right now things are a constant challenge for me (after Scott millers course I have a nice list of things to do under canopy on every jump) - Im wondering if people let themselves get into ruts, or hit skygod mode and stop learning more.

I'm not sure I agree that YEARS = knowledge, perhaps experience, but doesnt knowledge require more than rinse and repeat, and require active assimilation of new information?

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Ron 10]

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I'm not sure I agree that YEARS = knowledge, perhaps experience, but doesnt knowledge require more than rinse and repeat, and require active assimilation of new information?

See I kinda disagree, but it is a matter of definition.

You can KNOW how to do something, but not be able to do it....I have tons of AFF level 1's that KNOW that have to arch and to pull, but they don't do it.

EXPERIENCE in my not so humble opinion requires doing it, not just knowing it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AlexCrowley 0]

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I'm not sure I agree that YEARS = knowledge, perhaps experience, but doesnt knowledge require more than rinse and repeat, and require active assimilation of new information?

See I kinda disagree, but it is a matter of definition.

You can KNOW how to do something, but not be able to do it....I have tons of AFF level 1's that KNOW that have to arch and to pull, but they don't do it.

EXPERIENCE in my not so humble opinion requires doing it, not just knowing it.

I apologize, I didnt mean they dont have physical experience doing it. Only the difference between someone who performs the same movements on each canopy ride and the person who bugs the hell out of everyone to get new information and then actively practices those things and constantly improves.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Ron 10]

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I apologize, I didnt mean they dont have physical experience doing it. Only the difference between someone who performs the same movements on each canopy ride and the person who bugs the hell out of everyone to get new information and then actively practices those things and constantly improves.

No need to apologize....I could be very wrong...Its just my opinion.

Given two choices of who I would HAVE to trust my kid with to do a tandem if both just got rated.

1. A new skydiver with tons of tunnel and 500 jumps that is on a hot 4way team.

2. An old hand with 5000 jumps that has been around 25 years.

I'd give my kid to #2 anyday over #1.

Skydiving experience can only really be gained by skydiving.

I had a team mate who could fly circles around me. He was FAST had a ton of tunnel time and was just flat out good. He also bounced when he had his first mal.

He had skills and knowledge, but no experience.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jlmiracle 7]

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I could be very wrong

NO way! I'm saving this somewhere safe!

and as much as it pains me, I agree with Ron.
Experience will clue you into the sometimes minor but could be major things, such as "what will my canopy fly like in July weather? what will if fly like in Dec weather?" Just examples

judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[jumperconway 0]

The reason I write about this little history lesson is thus:
We seem to have a great big hard-on for jump numbers. What about time in grade. While the new technology is great and people can make ten or more jumps a day, what are they really learning. As with anything else there are people that are exceptions, but I don't think you learn as much making 1000 jumps in a year as you do making 1000 in four years.
--------------------------
I don't understand this somewhat. I think that time in the sport is great for knowledge especially with equipment problems, lessons learned so as not to repeat them etc. If I'm organizing and I have to choose between someone with 500 jumps in a year and a half, has 2 hours in the tunnel with Airspeed and competes in 4way, I would pick them way before I would pick someone with 750 jumps spread out over 19 years. Unless 500 of those were current high quality jumps.

[AlexCrowley 0]

I think the choice is obvious, but not so much different than if you used me as #1 and the #2 in your example :)

In general I was thinking about a more even playing field. Sure, jump numbers are important on a macro scale, 100 jumps vs 10000 is going to be noticable.

But change your #1 to a guy with 3000 jumps over 10 years who recently travelled to various Dzs to study with specialists in disciplines to increase his knowledge.

And #2 keeps his numbers and years but sticks to his DZ and does whatever course is required to keep his ratings and no more.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[bmcd308 0]

Perhaps in addition to asking about jump numbers, we should ask about bonfire time. When I started jumping, the weather sucked a lot - I was at the dz for tons of weather days. But I brought my beer and ate Judy's food and listened to anyone who would talk to me, including some folks that I have since learned to ignore.

I learned a ton before I had ten jumps, including an appreciation for the wisdom of folks who have just been around a long time.

Now, time in sport is not a perfect measure, either. There are jumpers who come to our dz and do two jumps every three months whether they need them or not and then hit the road home with their gear unpacked in a gear bag. Some of those folks have been in the sport 10 years or more. But they have fewer jumps than I do, and some of the stuff I hear them say makes me cringe.

Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com

[Trae 1]

What do jump numbers really mean?

The number of jumps a person has got just means exactly that....the number of jumps a preson has done.


If you've never met the type of person that doesn't even bother recording how many jumps they've done then you're missing out.

I've known a few of these and for them they just enjoy skydiving like they enjoy riding a bike ...no time records-- no jump no. records--- just pure FUN.

& they can usually outskydive just about any-one you could think of ...cause it's not about competing or goal achievement ..not for these types ....just havin' fun

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