1st one down sets landing pattern

[benpat 0]

I'd like to open a can'o worms......Here's my 2 cents.
I determine my landing direction before I board the aircraft..... Bad spot, I know the ground winds, Reserve ride, ditto. NOBODY tells me which direction to land..,NOBODY.....Left hand pattern,OK...This area only OK...Hey,you want to land downwind, do it away from the general landing area,dont encourage the 50 jump student to leave HIS brain in the aircraft.. Hey, new rules at LAX first one down.............

[quade 4]

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I'd like to open a can'o worms......Here's my 2 cents.
I determine my landing direction before I board the aircraft..... Bad spot, I know the ground winds, Reserve ride, ditto.

Yeah, that is a can of worms.

There -are- times when you MUST follow a particular landing pattern determined for EVERYONE before you even board the aircraft; a big-way large formation for instance.

HOWEVER, in almost every other situation, I would HIGHLY recommend against this.

At our drop zone it would be near suicide to -always- and bullheadedly determine landing direction before boarding the aircraft. It might be possible to do so certain times, but foolish to do it at others.

You see, I jump at a drop zone that is notorious for shifting wind patterns and in the course of a group of people jumping the winds can shift 360 degrees. No, that's not a typo. I mean a normal twin otter full of jumpers can be landing and the winds could be coming from the north when the first person lands, from the south when the middle people land and shifted back north again by the time the last person lands.

THE ONLY way you can avoid landing downind is to (and here's a novel concept for some) look at the way the winds are blowing. This is not to say a person should land against the flow of traffic or agaisnt the pattern, but rather they should land away from the main area unless they know they can follow the rules and still stay safe.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[benpat 0]

We have a wind sock at our drop zone.........I like to eat the carrot ffom the small end

[slotperfect 7]

At Raeford, most people land into the wind. In addition, most people use a left-hand pattern. On occasion some of the swoopers land downwind, but they are usually the first ones to the ground.

On days when the winds are nil or extremely light and wildly variable, we will determine the landing direction at the mockup or just after boarding the airplane, to reduce the risk of a canopy landing incursion.

Tandems and students always land into the wind.

Some dropzones have preset patterns and landing directions. Skydive Arizona @ Eloy, for example, uses a left-hand pattern and an East-West or West-East landing direction for the main landing area, and a North-South or South-North landing direction for the alternate landing area. There are also specific rules about overflying the buildings and the wind tunnel. Tandems and students always land into the wind. This is determined based on obstacles and the predominant winds at that dropzone.

I agree that taking note of the wind direction and velocity is a good habit to get into - I have done it for a long time. I would submit to you however that (unless one of the above situations exists) deciding which direction you are going to land before you board the aircraft is not necessarily a good idea. If you already have your mind made up when you board, and the winds change 180 degrees and significantly increase in velocity (happens often at Raeford), you will likely land well long of your intended target with a lot of speed.

Food for thought (or for the worms).

Arrive Safely

John

[kimemerson 7]

Mostly, it seems problems occur in light and variable winds. Stronger winds are usually more consistent. So, why not have a predetermined diection in light and variables when there is a question. Maybe an arrow that can be locked into position. In light winds, landing downwind shouldn't be a big deal. Even for the youngsters. And it certainly wouldn't hurt anyone to know how to land downwind and to lose the fear of it. In stronger winds there usually isn't a question - it's obvious. But there really should be more education on the light & variable winds because with them, as Quade said, it can change up just on on load. If everyone lands in the same diredtin, then you have some landing downwind, others upwind, and still others in a crosswind. If everyone is dead determined to land into the wind, you get hurt people eventually. For the most part, landing into the wind serves to keep us all in the same direction. With Otter loads this is more important than on smaller Cessna DZs.So what really matters is that we arern't face to face on landing, not what the wind is doing.

[quade 4]

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We have a wind sock at our drop zone.........I like to eat the carrot ffom the small end

At our drop zone -A- windsock wouldn't be a wise thing to look at, which is why we have many of them placed all over the landing area.

IF they are all blowing in the same direction it's rather trivial. However, there are times in which -none- of them are pointing in the same direction.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[itllclear 1]

As long as there are no other jumpers in the air, do whatever you want.

If there are other jumpers in the air, you have to decide which of these would hurt the least:

1) A head on 40 - 50 mph body to body impact just above the ground.

Probably will get a post in "Incidents."

2) a canopy entaglement resulting in a downward velocity of 50 - 60 mph on landing

Probably will get a post in "Incidents."

3) A downwind landing with a vertical velocity of 5 mph, and a PLF tumbled out landing with maybe some grass stains on your container.

Probably no post in "Incidents."

Remember that choices 1 & 2 involve taking at least one other jumper with you. If you are the one not following the established landing pattern and survive, the other person or his friends may make you wish you hadn't.

OK folks, did I make this simple enough? Maybe this should go over to "Safety and Training."

Harry

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[quade 4]

Absolutely clear Harry.

IF a person is going to land in the main landing area, follow the direction of the first person.

IF you need to land in another direction, you -must- do so away from the main landing area and away from other jumpers.

All of the above said, there -can- still be some abiguity if two people are "racing" down and both of them land in opposite directions at pretty much the same time. At which point I think it's not a bad idea to just land somewhere else and leave that abiguity alone.

My entire point in this thread is that from canopy opening to landing it's important for folks to actually watch what is going on in the landing area with regards to winds and other jumpers and not to have simply made their minds up before boarding the aircraft.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[tombuch 0]

Quote

Absolutely clear Harry.

IF a person is going to land in the main landing area, follow the direction of the first person.

Uggggh! Not this topic again!

Quade, you may set whatever rules you like for your drop zone, but other DZ's will have their own rules and policies. First person down isn't the only option and isn't always the best option. I assume your comment was intended to apply to your specific DZ but it reads like a national policy.

At my DZ we have a policy of establishing the landing direction at the boarding area prior to take off. If folks want to land in another direction they are welcome to do so away from the main landing area. Full details are available at http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php. See article 12 "Landing Direction Defined" Sorry, the graphics aren't operational yet on the new site.

This topic has been debated so many times I can hardly stand dealing with it anymore, but new visitors deserve an educated review.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[wildWilly 0]

You see, I jump at a drop zone that is notorious for shifting wind patterns and in the course of a group of people jumping the winds can shift 360 degrees. No, that's not a typo. I mean a normal twin otter full of jumpers can be landing and the winds could be coming from the north when the first person lands, from the south when the middle people land and shifted back north again by the time the last person lands.


So don't jump when the tornado siren goes off

Willy

growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional.

[benpat 0]

EXACTLY!!!!!
So some bozo(the 1st. person down) gets himself/herself into a corner, and the only way out is a downwinder,.... Can you say LEMMINGS.....
Give me a GOOD reason to adopt this asinine way of landing, wouldn't it be prudent to try and establish a global rule, and to not pander to swoopers.......

[itllclear 1]

Quote

Quote

At my DZ we have a policy of establishing the landing direction at the boarding area prior to take off. If folks want to land in another direction they are welcome to do so away from the main landing area.

This topic has been debated so many times I can hardly stand dealing with it anymore, but new visitors deserve an educated review.
.

Different DZ's, with different landing area configurations and wind conditions, may have
differing policies. However, each DZ should have some policy.

If you don't like the policy at the DZ at which you are considering making a jump, don't jump there.

I admit my attitude is influenced by the fact that I've been standing around waiting for the coroner a couple of times due to canopy collisions.

BSBD

Harry

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

• Quote

[billvon 2,990]

I think I see your confusion:

>I determine my landing direction before I board the aircraft.....

>Hey,you want to land downwind, do it away from the general landing area . . .

If you decided on your landing direction before you got in the airplane at Perris on a summer day, you'd be landing downwind half the time. Many DZ's have prevailing winds that don't change much, but in some places you simply can't count on the winds not changing.

So the question becomes - set the direction beforehand and have the whole load land downwind, or have a rule that lets you decide later? If you have a spare employee who doesn't mind standing in the sun all day and not jumping, he can move a marker or something on the ground so everyone knows which way to land. Even then, you might end up landing downwind if the wind switches halfway through the load landing. Or if you don't have a spare employee you can use "first person down sets pattern" which usually works. The one thing that _doesn't_ work is having some people land one way and some people land the opposite way in the same area.

At Perris, a way to avoid the entire issue is land in the student area facing whichever direction you want. Make sure you land next to a streamer, though - a streamer 200 yards away may well be wrong for your area.

[itllclear 1]

Quote

EXACTLY!!!!!
So some bozo(the 1st. person down) gets himself/herself into a corner, and the only way out is a downwinder,.... Can you say LEMMINGS.....

Give me a GOOD reason to adopt this asinine way of landing, .....

I'll give you three reasons.

1) You want to avoid getting hurt.
2) You want to live.
3) You don't want to hurt anyone else

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[skr 1]

I think the first person down approach is totally
inadequate unless you supplement it with a bunch
of other factors, like at the grassy area at Eloy:

- There are only two possible directions

- There are a bunch of wind indicators so you can
figure out up high how it's probably going to go and
start setting yourself up accordingly

- If you do something really stupid and dangerous
Bryan Burke will come out and help you upgrade
your thinking for next time

- There is a whole desert outside the grassy area
where you can land if you don't like the way it's
developing in the grassy area.


I don't understand the collective resistance to tackling
the question of how to determine landing direction.

It's complicated, like exit separation, and sound bite
solutions, leave 45 degrees, or wait 5 seconds and go,
or follow the first person down don't solve it.

Yet we did, after a zillion person years of effort, gain
a basic understanding of exit separation, and I think
we could do that with landing direction too.


But so far, over the last few years when someone brings
it up, the majority response has been either do the
first person down thing or risk canopy collisions,
like that's the only two alternatives.


Well, I'm heading off into a different life for a few months,
so I'll check in when I get back and see whether any
progress has been made.

Skr

[OSOK 0]

It's been drilled into my head (with very simple words, actually) that after picking a holding area, stick to the plan no matter what. Let's say I messed up reading the winds, doesn't matter... I'll do my messed up pattern, probably eat some grass as I land downwind, but at least I will not break any bones or kill myself as I try to adjust last minute. Of course... all this is in consideration of other people around me.

[shropshire 0]

My rules would run like this.
(1) Dont hit anyone else
(2) Dont hit anything else
(3) Dont hit the ground [hard]

Seems simple enough

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome