Landing Direction

[JohnRich 4]

Attached is a photo of a sign that is in preparation for mounting in the aircraft boarding area at Skydive Houston.

The idea is that someone in knowledgable authority will mark the landing direction on the sign with a grease pencil, so that everyone boarding the plane will be aware of it. This way, there should be no traffic conflicts with people landing in different directions. This is especially important during periods of no wind. If can be easily modified throughout the day, load by load, to keep up with changing conditions.

It seems like such an obvious good idea, I'm surprised that no one thought of it before. I can't recall seeing such a sign at any other drop zone I've ever visited.

Does anyone else out there have such a sign?

[adamsr 0]

almost every dz i have jumped at has a wind 'T' or an arrow out in the landing area to indiciate the direction of landing, although this isn't seen when you board the aircraft it is clearly visible in freefall and under canopy.

However with any system like this you can never trust it, coz the likelihood is that it wont be changed if the wind direction changes, so as always the windsock is the best indication of which direction to land.

So basically when you're under canopy and done your controlability checks have a look at the wind sock and work it out from there.

[kallend 2,027]

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Attached is a photo of a sign that is in preparation for mounting in the aircraft boarding area at Skydive Houston.

The idea is that someone in knowledgable authority will mark the landing direction on the sign with a grease pencil, so that everyone boarding the plane will be aware of it. This way, there should be no traffic conflicts with people landing in different directions. This is especially important during periods of no wind. If can be easily modified throughout the day, load by load, to keep up with changing conditions.

It seems like such an obvious good idea, I'm surprised that no one thought of it before. I can't recall seeing such a sign at any other drop zone I've ever visited.

Does anyone else out there have such a sign?

Skydive Chicago has a sign at the boarding area telling jumpers to agree on the landing direction before boarding the plane. It's only really an issue when the winds are light and variable.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Mak 0]

Maybe I'm slow but shouldn't E and W be interchanged on that sign?

[darkwing 5]

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Maybe I'm slow but shouldn't E and W be interchanged on that sign?

Maybe they are in the southern hemisphere, and everything is upside down and backwards there?

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Squeak 17]

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Maybe I'm slow but shouldn't E and W be interchanged on that sign?

Maybe they are in the southern hemisphere, and everything is upside down and backwards there?

If that were true N would be on the bottom

The Caravans from Ramblers have a sign in the plane giving landing patterns & direction.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[EDYDO 0]

I guess you're just checking to see if we're paying attention.

The concept will likely not work very well unless a diagram of the airport is used in addition to the direction. By the way, is that magnetic or true?

Ed

[JohnRich 4]

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almost every dz i have jumped at has a wind 'T' or an arrow out in the landing area to indiciate the direction of landing...

True, and we have that also. The general rule is that you land in the direction indicated by the wind sock.

However, when the wind sock is limp, that's when the sign would come in handy.

[JohnRich 4]

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Maybe I'm slow but shouldn't E and W be interchanged on that sign?

Hah! You are correct. And I'm amazed that I didn't even notice that... Doh!

I'll point it out to the DZ manager.

[adamsr 0]

i see what you're getting at now... it's difficult to tell in low wind and some kind of pre-determined direction needs to be decided. just spose the dz operators need to sort out an arrow or something in those kinds of conditions, and just make it clear that whatever way you think the wind is blowing, just land in the direction of the arrow.

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However, when the wind sock is limp, that's when the sign would come in handy.

[JohnRich 4]

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The concept will likely not work very well unless a diagram of the airport is used in addition to the direction.

Yes, I thought of that myself; an aerial airport photo would be better, but that would be hard to get on an outdoor sign, and have it last.

The orientation of our runway is north-south, and everyone knows that. So the compass directions are intuitive and natural.

Hopefully, they'll mount the sign with the orientation matching the actual compass points, so that no one will get confused.

[quade 4]

This would be an extremely BAD idea at some drop zones.

For instance, I can think of one drop zone in southern California where the wind can (and does on an almost daily basis) change 180 degrees within the span of a few minutes -- easily within the time span of a ride to altitude. It might do this several times over the course of several hours before settling in on a fairly constant direction for the afternoon.

It's a MUCH better idea to simply have windsocks and for everyone to simply follow the first person down (who hopefully isn't brain dead).

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[pilotdave 0]

Happened to me just today. We all agreed to land to the south. Kinda tough because the spot was to the north, meaning to fly a pattern we'd have to actually make a 180 to enter downwind. I had tracked away from the airport (to the north) and had a long way to get back. Realized I wasn't gonna be high enough for any kind of pattern so I'd just fly straight in. Well, on final, the first jumper just did a 180 and landed to the north. I knew I was too low to turn around so I just landed to the south, opposite just about everyone else. And I was landing upwind. Everyone else was landing downwind. Following the leader sucks when the leader screws up! Never saw so many people walk back all covered with dirt.
Dave

[quade 4]

Yeah, when the brain dead set the landing pattern incorrectly, it sucks big time. However, that's NOTHING compared to how much it sucks to attend a funeral or be the one the people are holding it for.

I've seen one person killed by opposite direction traffic during landing and another one badly injured.

There's simply -no- reason for it other than inattention.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[tattoojeff 0]

good thread but i cant get over the fact that the sign is incorrect!!!!! and even worse that not one jumper there has ever noticed!!!! how long has that sign been posted?

[adamsr 0]

I have never thought that the 'follow the leader' style do what ever the first person does is very good, sometimes by the time they've worked out what they're going to do you're in a position that you are committed to your current landing pattern due to your position.

I was visiting a dropzone last summer where in the dz brief i was told they had a strictly left hand circuit rule to keep you away from the buildings and make sure everyone was coming in the right direction, then after landing from a load i got a bollocking from the CCI because i was the only jumper that landed using a left hand circuit. Basically the first person down who was a local at the dz had taken it upon himself to change the rules because it suited his position better and he wanted to land right by the windsock so his walk was shorter, and the others followed him.

There does need to be uniformity however, as once before i have had to take avoiding action after turning onto my base leg and there being a canopy heading straight for me, at the same level and we were about 3 or 4 seconds away from colliding. fortunately i had enough height to recover from the radical avoidance turn and land safely! I never found out who it was though, didn't really hang around to take a good look and no-one ever owned up to it.

[quade 4]

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I have never thought that the 'follow the leader' style do what ever the first person does is very good, sometimes by the time they've worked out what they're going to do you're in a position that you are committed to your current landing pattern due to your position.

Again -- if a person is brain dead and in a hurry to set a pattern that is not in the best interest of -all- involved, then perhaps they need to be taken out behind the hanger and spoken to a little (maybe a lot).

I jump at an -extremely- busy drop zone. There are -always- people at this drop zone visiting from different parts of the world. There is a constant struggle to get them into compliance with our pattern, but having everyone follow the direction of the first person down is the ONLY way of keeping people as safe as possible.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[tombuch 0]

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I jump at an -extremely- busy drop zone. There are -always- people at this drop zone visiting from different parts of the world. There is a constant struggle to get them into compliance with our pattern, but having everyone follow the direction of the first person down is the ONLY way of keeping people as safe as possible.

I jump at an extremely busy DZ too, and we have found the 'discuss it in advance' method is a better option for us. The 'first one down' program was a mess, and our winds don't shift as much as yours. We also allow different landing directions for those who absolutely can't deal with a predetermined landing direction, but we don't want them in the main landing area. It's a sorta-rule in a no-rules environment. Our policy is spelled out in a S&TA article at: http://ranchskydive.com/safety/tb_article12.htm

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[nael 0]

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good thread but i cant get over the fact that the sign is incorrect!!!!! and even worse that not one jumper there has ever noticed!!!! how long has that sign been posted?

haha classic. Cant believe no one noticed! I was waiting for his explaination of why they were switched (expecting something to do with photoshop etc).
The signs not much use if the directions are wrong.

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[ianmdrennan 2]

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There are -always- people at this drop zone visiting from different parts of the world. There is a constant struggle to get them into compliance with our pattern, but having everyone follow the direction of the first person down is the ONLY way of keeping people as safe as possible.

I've said it before and I'll say it again....I'd rather have the entire load land downwind and slide in on their butts than have canopies criss crossing one another on landing. Canopy collisions suck.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[jimoke 0]

Dave , I was on the ground watching this fiasco. we were lucky it was only half of the otter load. the landings, what turned out to be 3 separate directions were actually spaced out so there was no close calls. but you are 100% correct this should never happen. it was corrected immediately on the following loads. this also has to do with New England UN-currency watch your ass in freefall as well.

oke

The ground always, remembers where you are!

[billvon 2,994]

>I'd rather have the entire load land downwind and slide in on their
> butts than have canopies criss crossing one another on landing.
> Canopy collisions suck.

Problem there is that even if you define the landing direction as only one direction, ever, there will be a guy on one load who is sure that landing downwind is fatal and thus will land into the wind. This is a problem with either system, but at least with a system that allows landing into the wind if the winds change after takeoff, there's a good chance that the first person down _will_ land into the wind and this guy will land the correct direction.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Yep. Of course a lot depends on the dz and the "normal" wind conditions. For example in Jumptown MA (my old dz) there is now a bi-directional only landing direction in the experienced area for space reasons (landing direction is set prior to takeoff).

Fortunately they offer a student landing area for those who don't want to follow the direction set for the load where there is plenty of space to land into the wind.

It's not a perfect system (none are because we can't exactly enforce it mid-air), but it works for that DZ and the situations they have to deal with.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[JohnMitchell 16]

Here at Kapowsin we have a close in landing area for experienced jumpers and a large student field just across the road. Each load predetermines its landing direction before takeoff, based on the prevailing winds. If, under canopy, you see the winds have changed, you may go over to the student field and land any direction you want. Kind of best of both worlds.

[dbattman 0]

When I moved from 182s to turbine DZs I found that the 'first person down' rule falls apart when you have more than a porter in the air. First one down is probably a downwind swooper, or winds are light and variable so a jumper sets up at both ends (now who's first?), or someone is lurking and wants to go through the windblades. This gets to be a big problem when swoopers and regular pilots share the same landing area.

Everyone has a different opinion, but I've never liked 'first man down' and I'd rather have an established pattern on the ground. If you want to swoop downwind through a common landing area, go farther out and walk back.

Yeah, I know downwinders are supposed to tell the load but they never do.

Just my $.02.